HBRat100: Purposeful Leadership in an Age of Uncertainty

Transcript

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[Julie] While we’re waiting for everybody to join, we’d love to hear where you’re all calling in from and watching us today. Also, if you are on any interesting talks or panels, if you’re listening in, anything that inspired you as we think about the future of business. I know for me listening to Ginni Rometty talk about skills first hiring was really inspirational.

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So let us know in the chat. So, I think we will get started. Hopefully, people will start making their way in. But everyone, welcome to today’s panel discussion. Purposeful Leadership in an age of uncertainty. I’m Julie Duval, editor of Special Projects and Webinars. And I want to thank all of you for joining us today. And I want to thank Daggerwing Group for making this discussion possible.

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We really want this to be an interactive session. So, if you have questions or comments at any time, just type your question in the ask the ‘Speaker button’ on the right-hand side of your screen. If you run into an issue, please go to the chatbot located at the bottom of your screen and leave a note or you can reach out to our live support team in the tech support chat channel on the right side of your screen, and someone will assist.

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And a final note about housekeeping. This webinar is being recorded. Business leaders today are facing extraordinary challenges from inflation, the great resignation, economic uncertainty, disruption, just to name a few. So, how can executives move their business forward amid this constant change and ambiguity? Well, that’s what we’re here to discuss today. And joining us is Michelle Mahony from Dagger Wing Group and Ranjay Gulati of Harvard Business School.

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Ranjay Gulati is the Paul R. Lawrence MBA class of 1942, professor of business administration and the former unit head of the Organizational Behavior Unit at Harvard Business School. He is an expert on leadership strategy and organizational issues in firms, and his recent work explores leadership and strategic challenges for building high growth organizations in turbulent markets. Michelle Mahony is managing partner of Dagger Wing Group, a global change consultancy.

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As a member of the executive Leadership team, Michelle leads all global client relationships and delivery of dagger into consulting services to ensure change is done right the first time. Michelle’s breadth of expertise in the people side of change includes facilitating executive alignment on every type of organizational transformation. Orchestrating enterprise level culture shifts to deliver on a CEO strategy and helping clients custom create and bring to life their change strategies.

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Michelle and Ranjay thank you so much for joining us today.

[Ranjay] Thank you.

[Michelle] Thanks for having us, Julie.

[Julie] Sure. So, before we dig in, I thought we could start by talking about what leadership actually is. We hear leadership advice on a daily basis, but a lot of us just don’t really have a common understanding about what leadership really is. So Ranjay, I know you did some recent research and interviews with CEOs and other leaders.

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Let’s start with you. How would you answer the question? What is leadership?

[Ranjay] So, you know, the conventional answer I had got locked in, leadership is about followership. Right. We’ve heard this forever that, you know, leaders have followers. You need to have people work with you rather than – because you’re the boss. But I’ve come to realize there’s more to this point.

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I think what I’ve been – in talking to a number of sports coaches in the last few years, I come to realize leaders unlock human potential, leaders bring people along with them, they help them perform in ways that even they didn’t think. I think that’s what leaders are, that’s what they do in a number of ways. They challenge theie people, they support theie people, they bring confidence to the people.

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But more than anything else, they bring energy into it.

[Julie] Michelle, I know you work with lots of your thoughts here as well.

[Michelle] I mean, I don’t know that I have a lot to add to the vast – thousands of articles and books that have been written on the topic. But as I think about great leaders that I have had the privilege of working with through the years, I think, you know, kind of almost building on what Ranjay just said. It’s the ability to inspire a reason to believe in a future that doesn’t yet exist, but is something that people feel is worth working towards and then giving people a meaningful part to play and

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that helps them unlock their potential.

[Julie] All right. So, I want to jump into the economy because, you know, uncertainty and change are always constant in business, but it seems even more prominent today. Talks of recession, companies being more cautious. And there’s also pressure for leaders to transform their business in today’s digital age. So, I would love to discuss leadership in this context.

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So, Michelle, what are some of the advice you give to executives on how to lead through uncertainty?

[Michelle] Yeah, I mean, I don’t know if it’s any worse than it’s been over the last few years, Julie. I mean, with the onset of COVID, I think that was a pretty unprecedented time of uncertainty and utter shock that leaders had to deal with in real time.

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So, I think, you know, what’s really changed now is just the context has evolved. Now we’re looking at economic uncertainty. As we’ve talked about, the whole structure of work has changed and what that looks like and people’s expectations of organizations have changed. But uncertainty has always been around. So, I think I’d like to just talk about a few principles for how leaders can think about this.

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And some of that I think builds on what Jenny was saying earlier today. So, the first one is really helping leaders connect the dots between the why, what, and the how. So, the why being, you know, why do you exist as an organization? The purpose which I’m going to let Ranjay talk more about since he just wrote a book on it, and the what being like what are you focusing on?

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What are the decisions that you’re making as you go forward? And then the how is, what are the ways of thinking and acting that we all agree on to get this done? And a lot of people talk about this as culture. We find that if you if any one of those pieces are missing, that just creates its weirdness and confusion on the part of employees and frankly, in the marketplace.

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So, work on connecting that and kind of creating an ecosystem. The second thing is really looking forward to what’s next around the corner, even when we don’t know what it is and having the courage to act without all of the information. And I think that’s so hard for leaders to do, but to get to help their people navigate, it’s something that they just have to start building confidence.

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And the third thing I think is fostering this idea of learning mindset. I know we’ve been talking about that a lot, but moving, always moving forward again in uncertainty. Learning from, you know, experimentation, learning lessons, and then moving forward again. Even when everything doesn’t turn out the way you want it to. Making those bets and taking action is important.

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And then finally, I think meeting people where they are, really listening, listen to your employees, listen to all your external internal partners and stakeholders and meet them where they are during this time because people are going through a lot right now. So, we need to at least acknowledge, listen and acknowledge that we’ve heard them.

[Julie] Ranjay, what are your thoughts on guiding through uncertainty?

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[Ranjay] So, I’ll start with a story, and it’s an apocryphal story because they haven’t been able to source the exact source of its valid story or not. But the story’s about in the 1930s, the Hungarian soldiers who went on an expedition in the Alps. They didn’t have a map, or a compass and they got lost and disoriented and got caught in a massive storm.

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And they were stuck there for days. No food, no shelter, desperate, not knowing what to do and not having a map. And they couldn’t even go out into the storm and find their way back. So, they’re sitting under this little rock, and they empty their backpacks. And at the bottom of one of their backpacks, one of them has a map.

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And this is a game changer because they use the map, they go out into the snow, they get lost, they find their way and they stumble their way back to base camp. And when they get to the base, the commander says, where were you? And they pull out the map to show him where they were. And he looks at the map and says, you dummies, this is a map of the Pyrenees Mountains, not the Alps.

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Well, what’s about the story? Even the wrong map is better than no map. And I think so, the first lesson I have is that in times of uncertainty, people need a map, even if it’s the wrong map. So, a corollary of that is you have to pivot away from the map if it’s the wrong map, but you need a map.

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The second piece, I’ll say very quickly is uncertainty activates an emotional response, and that’s just fear. Now, when we talk about what do we do? The word we like to use this ‘courage’, and courage is taking action in the face of it, not the absence. So, I think courage is going to be a huge cause as we think about operating in times of uncertainty.

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[Julie] Before I move on to my next question, I did want to chime in, Michelle, because Amy really resonated with what you said, that meeting people where they are and being a listener is critical beyond anything else that she’s seen lately. So definitely some good advice there. The question I had next is really about transformative change. So, there’s so much pressure for us to become digital and change fast.

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I mean, even look at the pandemic. We all changed quickly. We didn’t even really know. But how do you lead through that?

[Michelle] Yeah. You’re asking me first. Well, I’m going to start again. And thanks, Amy, for the comment. I’m going to start there with listening and again, that idea of meeting people where they are finding ways to you know, people are in such completely different places.

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And I know there’s that saying that’s really been going around lately like which is that you know watch how you treat people because you don’t know what they’re going through. And I think that’s true in the world right now coming out of the pandemic. There is so much going on. There are mental health issues, people are still feeling overwhelmed.

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And, you know, a lot of the research also shows that a lot of times senior leaders really believe they know what’s going on in the minds of their employees, and where they are. There’s a lot of interesting stuff done during COVID and burnout, where the perception of the leaders was, ‘I think our people are doing fine’.

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Meanwhile, the people are drowning. So really understand where people are. And then two, help them prioritize, there is so much, I’m finding people are again so overwhelmed. There’s so much on their plate. During these times of uncertainty, priorities are shifting and changing and instead of letting go of things as priorities change, employees and people are just taking on more.

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So, leaders, please help people let go of stuff and not just keep adding to their plates. And that’s going to help you refocus the organization and be more able to follow that map that Ranjay just mentioned. And finally, I would say, you know, leaders, get your leadership team together and lean on them as one and act as one team going forward.

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There’s nothing worse than an organization when people are all on different pages and again, people get pulled in different directions, that’s really exhausting. So, prioritize your other leaders in the organization to work as one team.

[Julie] Ranjay would love your thoughts. But before, I just wanted to chime in, Eric, really resonated with the map analogy. People need to know what they’re doing next and when they’re uncertain

[Ranjay] Thank you, Julie, and I think Michelle echoed that as well.

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I want to build off of what Michelle just said. You know, we have a huge need for compassion, empathy, understanding. I would put that under a larger bucket, what we like to call support. People want to feel supported and support means giving me the tools, giving me the skills, giving me the understanding and giving me the flex. Giving me the space to learn.

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Meet me where I am. That’s support. There’s another dimension which is to challenge, right? How are you giving me confidence, and helping me expand my horizons? Think beyond my comfort zone. But you can only challenge me if you support me too. You can’t just challenge me and not support me. So, the more I can support you, the more I feel

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I can also challenge you to accomplish more. And I’ll tell you why this is important. Because in adverse markets, or when there is transformative change, sometimes there’s a tendency to go into what you would call a defensive posture. Right. Playing not to lose the support systems and sometimes the best time to get ahead of markets and competition is uncertain times, because everybody’s playing defense.

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So how do you build an offense mindset when everybody’s playing defense? And I think this is not so straight forward. And as Michelle said, when people are under a lot of stress and strain, how do you tell them, ‘Now go play offense’ and you’re asking them to do more with less? So, and I think this is not so straightforward.

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But the idea, again, is to say, how can we provide lots of support? I just wrote a case on DBS bank, and the CEO was told when he was going through this digital transformation that you can’t turn sheep into wood. So, you’ve got to fire people, and he countered back and said, “I’m going to show you can turn sheep into wood.”

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[Julie] So I want to ask this question from Kevin because you’re sort of touching – both of you are touching on these things. What about self-leadership in terms of, you know, people continuing to focus on their own self, self-growth and development? I’ll start with you, Michelle.

[Michelle] Yeah, I think that, you know, we didn’t really talk about that in terms of leadership in activating that.

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But the idea of self, I guess I think of that, I interpret your question really as building self-awareness, learning what your what, you know, self-awareness to me means, you know, what are my blind spots that I don’t even realize exist. So, it’s sort of that gap between my intent and what I’m trying to do as a leader, and how it comes across.

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I’ve learned a few really hard lessons in that, in leadership very recently. It’s almost on a weekly basis, Julie. Where what I’m trying to do really doesn’t come across. And so, the more that I can speak to people, ask for different kinds of feedback, engaging coaching and do that kind of soul searching that is necessary, the better leader I think we, that I will be, and I think all of us, all of us will be.

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[Julie] RanJay, anything to add?

[Ranjay] I love Michelle’s answer. I think she’s so spot on, but I’ll just add a little bit on to echo what she said already. You know, we’ve all heard about authentic leadership, Bill George, my colleague, wrote a great book about it. And I think she’s absolutely right. And so is Bill. That I used to think leadership was about managing other people, leading people, leading others.

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But you can only lead others when you first lead yourself. To understand the inner journey of a leader is even more important, I think, than the outer journey. What is the inner journey? The inner journey starts with; what are my skills? What are my goals? That is kind of above ground level? What am I good at? What should I be doing?

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We do that as kids. What color is my parachute? You then go beneath the surface, and I can look at our emotions; what makes me happy, what makes me sad, what are my emotional triggers? Then we go beneath that, and we start to ask, what drives me, like what really drives me? Is it the need for achievement, need for power, need for whatever it is, affiliation.

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Go beneath that. We start to ask questions that are our values. What are my values? And I think when you really go deep, you start to ask yourself what’s my purpose? And I think you look at great leaders, and you see they’ve done that work. You’ve started with their goals, they started with their skills, they worked their way down. What they were down to finally asking the question; why am I here?

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[Julie] So that’s actually a really good transition. I was going to ask you some questions about purpose, but Peter has actually chimed in. What tips do you have about how to make purpose clear and compelling? So, Ranjay, I’ll start with you. And your book is Deep Purpose, which we’ll talk about in a second, too.

[Ranjay] So this is, I presume, for individuals or organizations, individuals.

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So, look, people have contemplated purpose for thousands of years. I like the definition by William Damon, Stanford, psychologist which is ‘purpose is an enduring commitment to do something that is meaningful to the self, and consequential for the world beyond us’, and the most important word in there is ‘and’, meaningful to the self AND consequential for the world. Most of us, most of us want to do something that is meaningful beyond us, whatever that might be.

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And the question is, how do I connect the two? How do I find things to do that I find meaningful? But I also can find that is consequential. Now some people compartmentalize, I do work, and then I go and do things outside of work and those are disconnected, you know? And I think what people look for now, I think people – just to build on Michelle’s earlier point – people are looking for more coherence in their lives.

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They want to feel like what they do at work also matters, and if it matters, I show up differently at work.

[Julie] So is that your work is deep purpose? Is that what the purpose is? Or explain a little bit more about that?

[Ranjay] So it’s called deep purpose for a reason because I couldn’t call it purpose. I was trying to call it one word, but I couldn’t get it there, because I think a lot of organizations that have what I call superficial things, it’s just like a mission to complete.

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And the book takes the idea of like, ‘how can organizations take this idea of purpose from being just a slogan, from being just like a wallpaper slogan, to really taking it deep into the organization’. In a way where your employees are deeply connected and buy into it, where your customers feel more connected to it and are a lot more loyal because of it, right? Your communities are also important to it and will trust you more for it, and your ecosystem partners too. And it becomes an orienting framework for how you do things.

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And that’s why I ended up having to call it Deep Purpose – if only it was a mainstream idea. I think it’s still fringe but is becoming more mainstream. But I wanted to say purpose unlocks economic and social value. It also allows you to connect deeper with individuals. But it’s really, it’s a simple idea, but we had politicized, complicated, polarized, the word like crazy. I don’t understand why.

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[Julie] So, Michelle, how do you see the idea of purpose being a critical driver of high performance in today’s companies?

[Michelle] Well, we have the data. We have lots of research and good studies that do show that companies with deep purpose, as Ranjay talks about, do outperform companies that don’t have it.

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And, you know, there’s a number of studies that show that. So, we do have evidence around that. So, I guess the question then becomes, well, how do you do that, and how do they do that? So, I think that it’s all, it comes down to, as Ranjay said earlier, it’s like making that connection between each individual and what you’re trying to do as an organization.

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So that commitment is really inspired in the individual. So that’s one piece of it. But then there’s other idea, which is just not quite as emotional and sexy, I think. And that’s the idea of like, really operationalizing your purpose and embedding it in everything that you do in the organization so that it literally becomes the guidepost for every decision you make.

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It guides how you do things like boring things, processes and planning. And it’s just it really is sort of the fabric and the DNA of your organization. And, you know, you see it, when you’re experiencing that in a company, you see it in how they conduct their meetings, you know, on a day-to-day basis.

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You see it in conversations. You see how they sort of tough problems. The purpose just becomes front and center, and then the decisions become easy. But doing that is really hard. It takes a lot of discipline, commitment, and conversation.

[Michelle] So one of the questions we often we actually write about this a lot in HBR is how do you measure purpose?

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How do you know whether or not your clear purpose statement and what you’re all rallying behind is actually working?

[Ranjay] So this is a tough nut. This is a tough nut because how do I measure you and say, ‘so are you living the purpose?’. You know, ‘No. Oh, I’m not. I’m not quite sure on a 5-point scale if I’m living the purpose.’

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So, I think what people end up doing is, some people measure the inputs and the team’s inputs that are, to what degree is purpose referenced, used, tied to the culture all that. But I see a lot more organizations measuring the consequences. So, I’ll give you one example. Like, you know, if you look at – I look at one professional service organization where they measure value, like ‘how are we driving value in the world we operate’ and they measure financial value, which they always had, but they now measure clients value, right?

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They also measure social value, and they measure employee value. So, they said, look, if we’re living our purpose, a purpose encompasses these four communities that we want to serve, are we driving value to all four of them, and to what degree? And they measure and reward every partner in the firm around those four dimensions of values. I think you see people measuring outcomes of purpose or inputs that go into purpose, but purpose itself. Even companies that are using all kinds of data,

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They’re looking at public publications and media reports. But I think that’s a tough nut, so look at consequences or look at inputs.

[Michelle] So, I want to ask this question from Kev. What advice would you give to leaders who are trying to navigate the challenges of uncertainty and change, while also remaining true to their purpose and values? Michelle’s are with you on that one.

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[Michelle] Okay, I’ll start. That’s a, that’s a good one. So, I’m thinking about a company that we’re working with right now. And what we’re helping them do is to operationalize their sustainability, environmental sustainability plan. They have a big impact. It’s a food company. They have a huge impact on, you know, carbon emissions, you know, regenerative agriculture, things like that.

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And they have very high goals. And this completely goes with their individual purpose and their values. And they have been consistent in terms of being really ahead of the game on this issue. So, it’s a real privilege to work with them. What’s challenging, though, is you get the issues that are going on, you know, the war in Ukraine, issues with the supply chain, pressures from Wall Street. Where leaders are feeling like, ‘oh, gosh, I have to make these short-term decisions at the expense of sort of our long-term commitments that are really in line with our values and our purpose, i.e. the sustainability work that we’re trying to do.’

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And so, they’re feeling like they have to make these tradeoffs and say, you know what, we need to kick the can down the line on sustainability. We need to deliver to Wall Street, and the pressures are just too great. So, what they’re trying to do is change the conversation there, from being sort of an either-or conversation, around short term versus long term and sort of the thinking we’ve all had to yes-and conversation.

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So how do you balance both things? And this one involves getting finance people involved and helping to have those conversations because it’s a completely new way of thinking. So, you know, I’m not trying to sugarcoat this and say that the challenges, these challenges are very, very real, and people’s jobs depend on them. But it’s almost like we need a paradigm shift in order to do this.

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And the guiding light there is the values and the purpose to force these kinds of conversations. You know, during these challenges.

[Julie] Ranjay, anything to add?

[Ranjay] I love again, the ‘yes-and’ thinking, but here’s what I discovered. I found in my research, it’s very hard to get the win-win, ‘yes-and’ solutions, that most of life involves very hard tradeoffs.

00:25:50:20 – 00:26:15:21

You hope for the yes-ands, but you’re still stuck in some of the off diagonals where you’re forced to make. So, I ended up calling these people practical idealists. You know, the idealists want to get to win-win, but they also recognize that there are some things that never get to a win-win. That are going to be, you know, if I’m a food service company, I’m going to use plastic packaging until there’s a better solution, right?

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I might even use some other plastic content that may not be – I may not be able to get to sustainable agriculture 100%. So, how do we learn to decide what’s the tradeoffs in this whole situation? While I’m aiming for the yes-and. So, I love the yes-and thinking, unfortunately hard to be there always, all the time.

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[Julie] Well, believe it or not, we have time for one more question. And I love both of your takes on this. When we talk about leadership, we tend to think of the C-suite or the executive committee. But I would love to get your thoughts on all of us as leaders, whether we sit at the top, middle or bottom. So, Michelle, we’ll start with you.

00:26:56:29 – 00:27:19:07

How can mid-level managers feel empowered to sort of start these conversations around purpose and driving towards good change?

[Michelle] Yeah, I think they can feel empowered if they have an organization that supports them in feeling empowered. Managers are there, you know, we hear people call them the ‘messy middle’, often we hear them refer to that, which is I think there’s some truth in that.

00:27:19:07 – 00:27:43:16

But it also just is such a reflection of how stuck they are in the middle with, you know, pressures coming from leadership and pressures coming from their teams. They need help to navigate this stuff. And I see, you know, so many organizations and managers almost become an afterthought where it’s like, oh, we’ll do a cascade and communicate to them and somehow, they’ll know how to how to do these things.

00:27:43:18 – 00:28:08:02

No, we need they need investment, and we need to think of them as partners in delivering on the purpose and how to have those kinds of conversations. Navigating these challenges, they need focus, attention, investment, and a programmatic approach to doing this. It’s the only thing that really works in this case, and it’s absolutely a top priority.

00:28:08:02 – 00:28:42:16

And no matter what the economic situation is, that investment will pay off big time.

[Ranjay] and I love the messy middle analogy. I think Michelle is again absolutely right on that. I want to just add one little wrinkle into that conversation. I think it’s important to think about; the middle is where the frontline gets to interact with, and they get to frame the job for that frontline worker. And in some ways frame the connection that frontline workers may feel with the organization.

00:28:42:18 – 00:29:09:11

Right. And there are different framings that can be used. Let me use one frame, which is something we in New England use in our football team, which is ‘do your job, do your job, do you do your job’. And that creates one kind of connection to the organization. And I want to contrast that with Pete Carroll, the coach of the Seattle Seahawks, where that team’s slogan is, ‘I’m in’ and think about it: do your job, or I’m in.

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And what Pete says is and I’ll quote him, he says, “There’s magic when organizations can inspire people to align their own personal passion, self-understanding, and desire for growth with a common organizational ambition”, I think is that ability to connect the frontline workers, to feel a different relationship with the organization, with middle managers, and then Michelle is right, if they are operating in a different, larger context,

00:29:35:28 – 00:29:57:08

It is very, very hard to do. You can’t override what’s sitting above you. But I think you can do that: ‘I’m in’, not ‘do your job’.

[Julie] Very inspiring, all of it. So, Michelle and Ranjay, this has been a great discussion, but I’m afraid we’re out of time. I want to thank everybody for joining us and I want to thank Daggerwing group for making this discussion possible.

00:29:57:10 – 00:30:26:13

Now it’s time for our late afternoon session featuring Honeywell CEO Darius Adamczyk on future proofing a complex global organization through data and automation, and Ethan Malik of Wharton on the latest developments in artificial intelligence, and his experiments with chatGPT, Bing, and more. You should see a pop-up button directing you to that session on the bottom left-hand corner of your screen, but you can also find the link on the agenda page.

00:30:26:15 – 00:30:33:03

Thank you again everybody for joining and have a great day.