Episode 4: The Art of Language Persuasion

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated with artificial intelligence. It’s in the queue to go through a review with human eyes!

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;29;16
Unknown

Hello and welcome to Change@Work, a podcast about the ever evolving world of work and the human behaviors that drive it. I’m Chris Thornton, principal here at Daggerwing Group. We’re consultants who take a slightly different approach to change and how we work with our clients. We’ll explore some of the things we’ve learned, what to do, what not to do, who we are as a team and as individuals.

00;00;29;19 – 00;00;47;28
Unknown

Today we are joined by our first guest outside of Daggerwing, and it’s Lee Carter. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here. Lee, Thank you for saying yes to this. You and I worked together recently and the whole time that I was sitting there in the room, we were preparing for a pitch. I was like, I got to get her on the podcast.

00;00;47;28 – 00;01;05;07
Unknown

I got to get her on the podcast. So thank you for saying yes to this. Thank you so much for asking me. I was honestly, I think when we were when we were doing the pitch together, I was so mesmerized by how you really engage the clients to ask so many really meaningful questions. So I’m looking forward to the conversation because you ask the question, Thank you.

00;01;05;09 – 00;01;24;24
Unknown

Thanks for that. I’m taking them in. I’m accepting the compliment because you are the president. Atmos Landscape Partners. You’re a language strategist, you’re a researcher, you’re author of an amazing book, Persuasion, which I bought myself off. Wow. Thank you. While we were in the room getting ready for that pitch, I’m like, I’ve got to get her book. This is so good.

00;01;24;27 – 00;01;42;18
Unknown

And what I get so excited about is I hear you talk with clients, and as I was reading your book was how do you dive into authenticity and how do you meet people where they are and how do you talk in a way that can be heard? You know, the subtitle of your book is Persuasion Convincing Others when facts don’t seem to matter.

00;01;42;18 – 00;02;05;21
Unknown

Yeah, which seems maybe it’s always been relevant. It feels really relevant right now, but I think it’s probably always been true. Yeah. Just feels really intense right now. Can you talk a little bit about why you wanted to write the book? Yeah, Yeah, I think it feels especially intense right now because facts don’t seem to matter more than ever because we’re surrounded by so much information.

00;02;05;23 – 00;02;25;29
Unknown

It used to be that we had authority sources that you could go to and you’d be like, I trust ABC News to tell me the truth. I can go to the Encyclopedia Britannica and they will give me the objective truth that doesn’t exist anymore because you can question every source of information in your one Google search away from anything that you want to believe.

00;02;26;01 – 00;02;50;21
Unknown

And humans are designed right to believe what we already what we already believe. It’s like we just reinforce our existing opinions more than anything else. And so we’re in this age where we’re more and more tribal because of social media, because of the way that our media is delivered, we can choose to only identify as one, you know, one option and just reinforce all those beliefs so it becomes harder and harder to change hearts and minds.

00;02;50;21 – 00;03;12;16
Unknown

Yeah, And in essence, we’re trying to do that every single day as marketers, as communicators, as business people. We must persuade. You can’t move forward unless you’re bringing some people along for the ride. Yeah. And so I think it’s a lost art persuasion. I think what people are really doing is preaching to the choir and that is not persuasion.

00;03;12;19 – 00;03;35;00
Unknown

And I think this is a skill that is much, much needed because if we want change to happen, if you want more people to buy your product, if you want to change direction at your company, if you want to change somebody’s vote, you’re going to have to engage in persuasion. All right. We’re going to hold on that because that is where we want to dig in later on on this podcast.

00;03;36;07 – 00;03;52;21
Unknown

We try to prove that people are human. yeah. Because Daggerwing is a little bit different. We’re not change robots. At least we try not to be. And so we do a little quiz to make sure that you are human. So let’s just make sure that you’re human. Okay? What do you remember most about your first job?

00;03;53;01 – 00;04;18;02
Unknown

goodness. Well, I’ve been working since I was 13. I got an exception because you had to be 14 in New Jersey to have your working papers. And so I got an exception and I started working at a deli. Well, I’m not a major, so. So I worked in a deli bakery when I was 13. Okay. I’m in a kindred spirit, so I, I mean, what I learned that sticks with me is how to make sandwiches.

00;04;18;02 – 00;04;34;27
Unknown

And New Jersey delis are a real thing. A lot of people think of New York as the place to get deli is, and those are like big heaping meat sandwiches, which I get the New York Deli appeal. But there’s an art to New Jersey sandwiches and you don’t get them anywhere else. And so I take sandwich making very, very seriously still to this day.

00;04;34;27 – 00;04;52;17
Unknown

And when I go home to my mom’s house, I still go into that local deli. My niece works at that local time. Yeah, Yeah. Top three sandwiches. Let’s go. Number one, what they call in New Jersey is Sloppy Joe. Most people do not call it a Sloppy Joe. I. I am from that area in New Jersey. That’s where I live.

00;04;52;17 – 00;05;13;07
Unknown

So I know exactly what you’re talking about. Yeah, it’s. It’s like three slices of bread, turkey, ham, Swiss cheese, Russian dressing and coleslaw. So good. It’s so, so good. And if it’s really good, they butter the bread. I take that seriously, too. Number two. Well, a good Italian sub, which, you know, in different parts of the country, some people call it a wedge, some people call hoagies, I call it a sub.

00;05;13;07 – 00;05;35;05
Unknown

And to me there’s nothing better. And I like it with oil and vinegar and mayonnaise and salt and pepper, which is controversial, unhealthy. But load it up, load it off. Lots of lots of processed meats. It’s all good stuff. I’m ready for it. And your third, think about it. Well, my third, I like the chicken cutlet sandwich. Okay.

00;05;35;12 – 00;05;57;20
Unknown

How’s that chicken prepared? Describe the chicken. It’s. It’s fried. Okay, sure. It’s fried and breaded and it’s amazing. Usually has cheese. And I’ll put Russian dressing on that, too, because I’m a big fan. Those are three incredible sandwiches. Shout out to Jersey. Do you have a professional mentor, like an official one, or have people played that role for you throughout your career?

00;05;57;20 – 00;06;16;24
Unknown

I don’t just have one. At one point in my career, I had made a decision that I wanted to and I really wanted to grow. It was like a lot of your career as a nurse and I think so much of it is I want to get promoted to the next level. And I hadn’t really taken a step back and be like, How do I become a leader?

00;06;16;24 – 00;06;40;01
Unknown

What does this look like? And so one of the best advice I got was to form a sort of informal advisory board of of peers or people who are leaders that you really respect. And so and so in, in, in that time I started meeting regularly with about four different women, two of whom are CEOs of partner Omnicom agencies.

00;06;40;04 – 00;07;01;04
Unknown

And they just really helped me navigate different career challenges, help me create a vision for what I wanted to achieve and I think really helped me get to where I’m sitting today. It was I mean, I never really viewed myself as a leader. I was always really focused on the work we did and trying to be the best practitioner I could be and not a leader.

00;07;01;07 – 00;07;21;28
Unknown

And they really helped me see myself differently and elevate myself and taught me how to just really grow, mentor others and how important it is to have a community of people that are your peers. Because I think one of the other things that happens as you get more and more senior is that you don’t have a peer group.

00;07;22;00 – 00;07;38;07
Unknown

You know, it’s like and so you can make a lot of mistakes and sort of being friends with the people that you’re supposed to be leading and that’s you know, it’s important to have friendships, but at a certain point you need to know when to go home and stop sharing with us, right? Because so it becomes lonelier and lonelier and you’re trying to do it all by yourself.

00;07;38;07 – 00;07;59;20
Unknown

And so it was just helpful and meaningful in so many different ways. In the back of my book, I talk about some of my acknowledgments. I talk about some of those women because they’ve had a huge, huge impact. There was a moment, I don’t know how many people are listening or if you’ve ever had three six year olds, thousands of people out there listening, and I had a36 year review.

00;07;59;20 – 00;08;23;13
Unknown

It was pretty tough feedback and it was around this idea. One of the pieces of feedback that I’d gotten was that they viewed me as a leader, but not a very good one. And part of it was because I, I led through friendship and in sharing work rather than being a leader. And so it was these other women who really helped me figure out what is my leadership style, how am I going to do this, how I’m going to change and grow from it?

00;08;23;13 – 00;08;48;17
Unknown

How do I hear that feedback and not get emotional about the feedback and and really and change and adapt? And so it, it really it, it really helped me. But the feedback and then this group of women one more question that we ask everybody what was your favorite age or what is your favorite age? 27. Why so specific it was.

00;08;48;22 – 00;09;20;05
Unknown

It’s so specific. 27 I didn’t know how good it was at the time because I just suffered like a major heartbreak and a serious relationship ended by email. yeah, man. Yeah, but 27 was so good because career wise, you’re in a good place that you make enough money that you’re no longer like eating ramen noodles so that you can go, you know, so they can go to the bars or, you know, do you know you can get a share house where you’re not sharing a room with 25 people, but you’re like, you’re so free enough that you don’t have other responsibilities.

00;09;20;05 – 00;09;41;01
Unknown

And it’s it’s so you’re still appreciative of the fact that you’re starting to earn good money. You’re still and like, I don’t know, physically, you’re so fit and prime and there’s like and your friends are all kind of in the same place. And there’s this this congeniality of friendship and your work, relationships and everything is just kind of fun and awesome.

00;09;41;03 – 00;10;02;09
Unknown

And I spent way too much time worried about what was next and not enough time about just living right there because those years were amazing years. 27, 27, 27. You’ve. You’ve passed your human. Yeah, Well done. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you. Let’s get back into your book and and and also the work that you’re doing here at Messalonskee.

00;10;02;09 – 00;10;33;28
Unknown

So can you talk about what Maslansky focuses in on. Sure. Maslansky and Partners is a what we call a language strategy firm. And it is it has awesome work in that we really look at our clients business challenges and how to solve them by more effectively communicating, because oftentimes our clients will come to us and say, you know, if people only knew that we are a really good company, if people only knew that our product was awesome, if people only understood where we were going, you know, investors would want invest more, employees would want to work with us.

00;10;33;28 – 00;10;52;09
Unknown

People would be buying our products. And so what what companies are often doing in those situations is they’re spending a lot of money on advertising or they’re spending a lot of money on product development, and they’re not really thinking about, well, maybe the problem is the message itself. And so we go in and we help companies communicate more effectively.

00;10;52;11 – 00;11;14;17
Unknown

We really zero in on messaging and language. And so this is all sort of hard to understand if you’ve never worked with us until I give you a couple of examples. So for example, when Howard Schultz had left Starbucks and he was gone for a while, he came back to find or he came back because the coffee had lost its way.

00;11;14;21 – 00;11;31;05
Unknown

People are no longer satisfied with their cups of coffee at Starbucks. A lot people time it was burnt. It was inconsistent. The experience wasn’t what it was. So he did a couple of things when he came back and he closed the doors and he trained everybody to make the perfect cup of coffee. And that was a big symbolic gesture.

00;11;31;05 – 00;11;53;16
Unknown

It was very important. But he also launched via Instant coffee. I lived through that as a consumer. That was wild. Like that was everything. Starbucks wasn’t supposed to be right. But what did you do to help them make it work? So when you think about instant coffee, nobody really wants instant coffee because you think about instant coffee. It’s like grainy, it sinks, it’s watered down, it’s not.

00;11;53;16 – 00;12;12;11
Unknown

And so they knew this was a totally different product, but nobody was excited about it in testing because of what you called it. But when people actually tasted it, they’re like, this tastes like a Starbucks. So we took that and we tested all different kinds of language around it. Instead of calling it instant coffee, we called it Starbucks coffee in an instant.

00;12;12;13 – 00;12;33;14
Unknown

And instead of calling instant coffee, it’s called Ready Brew, or it was called time. So you change the language, you change your perception of about it. And people just I mean, it was a very, very successful launch. And in large part I think because of the language. So I think that we look at things and having brand strategy, we look at things about having your advertisements ready, your social strategy.

00;12;33;14 – 00;12;58;22
Unknown

Not everybody thinks about their language strategy, and it’s really important that you have those pieces right, because how you communicate the words that you use all that are so much. And I think it matters more and more and more in the environment that we’re in today because we have less amount of time to get our point across. And there’s so much baggage with different language and different words and different phrases and everything’s being politicized and you might just step in it without even realizing it.

00;12;58;25 – 00;13;22;23
Unknown

So our whole job is to help shape the language strategy for companies. So in your book Persuasion, you talk about that sense of why can’t people just understand how much I care or why this is going to be so great? If only they could understand. And you talked about needing to get language right. You also talk a lot about the importance of empathy.

00;13;22;23 – 00;13;44;22
Unknown

Yeah. And can you talk on that? And then I’m going to ask you to connect that to leaders within an organization. So why does empathy matter so much? Yeah, the heart and soul of my book and the heart and soul of the work that we do is all about empathy. And empathy is not endorsement. Empathy simply means a deep understanding of the people that you’re speaking with and trying to engage and persuade.

00;13;44;24 – 00;14;06;15
Unknown

And so I think oftentimes what we do, rather than seek to understand, is we seek to talk, right? We are like, if you only knew X, Y, Z fact, if you only knew this piece of information, then you would change your mind. Yeah, it’s not the way it works. We need to understand where the other person is coming from and speak to their language.

00;14;06;15 – 00;14;24;29
Unknown

We need to speak to their truth. We need to speak to their worldview, because if we don’t, we’re just going to get rejected out of hand. And that can be when you’re talking about something politically or whether you’re talking about something from a corporate perspective, if you’re trying to create a vision in an organization, you need to understand where it is that they’re coming from.

00;14;24;29 – 00;14;47;18
Unknown

And so I had recently we, we, I a few months ago now, we went through our review process and I had somebody come into my office, gave her her her raise, and she said, you know, thank you very much. I’ve been thinking, I really would like to have X amount more. But let me give you the three reasons why she said to me.

00;14;47;18 – 00;15;10;10
Unknown

One, I know that you’re really focused on growth of the business, and I feel like I’ve contributed to the growth of the business by doing X, Y, Z. Another key to your strategy is getting new hires up the curve more quickly so that we can get more people doing the work. Well, I’ve spent an amount of time training that’s more than others, but I really have taken it seriously and I created this training program.

00;15;10;13 – 00;15;29;19
Unknown

And the third reason why I think you should give me a raise is because, you know, I know that you’re you’re really focused on I forget what the third thing was right now. And I was like, raise, yes, you deserve it. She didn’t come in and say, here’s three things about me that are also said. Here’s three things that are important to you and the business that I’m working on.

00;15;29;22 – 00;15;50;00
Unknown

She could have come and said, I’m here all the time. Yeah, I work harder than anybody else. I’ve written better messages. I know she came in and said, here, three things that are important to you that I help with, right? And in so doing, she had empathy for me. She understood where I was coming from and it totally resonated with me.

00;15;50;02 – 00;16;10;28
Unknown

And so I think when we are trying to engage, whether it’s in a leadership conversation or however whatever context sitting and saying, I want to put myself in the other person’s shoes and understanding three things about them, First of all, why do they do what they do? Why are they doing what they’re doing? Yeah, so and we can break this down in the concept a change in leader leadership if you want to.

00;16;10;28 – 00;16;33;29
Unknown

But when they do what they do, why do they believe what they believe and why do they feel the way they feel? And if you can understand those three things, then you can start shaping your messaging around it. But not until you do that. I love it that connects so much to work that I’ve done previously. When working inside of organizations in an internal communications and change role.

00;16;34;06 – 00;16;56;16
Unknown

And I so often, probably more leaders than not, would hit a wall where they just say people just need to know that they’ve got to get on the bus, they got to get on the bus. And this frustration of the same metaphor over and over of get on the bus, they got to get on the bus. And I remember finally to get on the bus, I remember finally saying to one leader, I got my berry pants on that day.

00;16;56;16 – 00;17;14;21
Unknown

And I just said, why would they get on the bus when you haven’t told them where they’re going? Why should they trust to get on with you? They don’t know where you’re headed. They don’t know why it matters to them. They don’t know how they can be a part of it. I love the people that won’t get on the bus because they make you work harder and be a better leader.

00;17;14;21 – 00;17;44;06
Unknown

Right. It’s also real frustrating, but it’s really frustrating. But it takes time and it takes empathy to get them out. Yeah, I just I just wrote an article last night and it’s about the importance of creating a vision that people can actually see now. I think it’s so interesting that when we talk about creating a vision statement, most people come back and be like, Well, our vision is to be number five by 2025, or our vision.

00;17;44;06 – 00;18;00;14
Unknown

And I, you know, we want to be a $20 million company by 2020. We want to, you know, grow 5%. And that’s not a vision. Those are goals. And goals are not going to get people on your bus goals. They’re going to make you think about profit. Schools are going to make you think about a lot of things.

00;18;00;14 – 00;18;20;09
Unknown

Goals are not going to get people on your bus. So when you create a vision, it’s got to be some people can actually visualize. That’s why it’s the same route word. Yeah, and that’s going to take a long way. But in order to do that, you need to put yourself in their shoes. They understand what’s going to inspire them, what’s what’s going to make them see what you see.

00;18;20;12 – 00;18;39;04
Unknown

It has to be so crystal clear in your book Persuasion, you talk about someone who helped you create a vision. Can you tell that story? yeah. So when I was about 27, I had just gone through a breakup and I went out for drinks with one of my good friends. And he said to me, you know, a few years, none of this is going to matter.

00;18;39;06 – 00;19;00;03
Unknown

Like what? What? Yeah. What do you want your life to look like in ten years? And I was like, I don’t know, like, maybe I have a job. I, like, hopefully be married in ten years and maybe have a couple of kids. That would be nice, I guess. And he was like, That’s your dream. A serious that’s your dream.

00;19;00;06 – 00;19;20;23
Unknown

And he said, Let me tell you a dream. My dream in ten years time, I’m going to be down and I’m going to be have just gone fishing, my brother and dad and we’re going to be on the boat coming back into into the marina and it’s going to be sunset and I’m going to be playing Bob Seger Hollywood nights and the wind going to be my hair.

00;19;20;23 – 00;19;39;01
Unknown

And I’m going to have caught all these fishermen. Dad, my brother and my wife and my daughter is going to be waiting at the marina. And I’m just know in that moment that I’ve succeeded. And he looks at Magos Lee. That’s a dream. What you just talked about. That’s not a dream of it. What’s your dream? You can’t.

00;19;39;04 – 00;19;57;14
Unknown

And it was like it’s just something that stuck with me. Because so often in life, unless you can actually picture it so crystal clear that you can visualize every part of it, it’s not going to get people inspired. It’s not going to change hearts and minds. It’s not going to do. And so I think that story, in essence, to me is what vision is all about.

00;19;57;17 – 00;20;27;17
Unknown

So when you think about all the things in persuasion, a lot of is externally focused, right? So within politics, but it also directly applies to leadership within organizations. Do you where would you have leaders focus or what do you think is most important for them to think about? So I think that the first thing that I tell people that they need to focus on is being crystal clear on their own vision, like having that picture in their head that they know exactly what it is.

00;20;27;17 – 00;20;47;05
Unknown

What does success look like? Where are you going? Right. And this is not like hindered. I want people to look at this as big as they can before you start saying, well, Legal’s know that’s never going to happen. We can’t in this environment matter. Now, whatever your fears are legal, let me say it. We are not going to be able to do it.

00;20;47;05 – 00;21;04;14
Unknown

We can’t hire that much. We can’t grow that much. We can’t spend that much. Like no, create your vision. Absent any of that. That’s what I think leaders need to do. What do you want it to look like? Your growth internally? What do you want your culture to look like? What’s it going to feel like to go to work?

00;21;04;14 – 00;21;28;21
Unknown

What’s the product you’re going to be making? What’s the service going to be offering? Like I Crystal crystal clear on that and go big, go huge. And and then once you’ve done that, then get real about it. But allow yourself some time to dream. And I don’t think we do that as leaders enough anymore. We’re so focused on putting out fires and so focused on managing and so far on doing that we don’t think big.

00;21;28;21 – 00;21;42;25
Unknown

I think it’s also important, though, to go to the second step, which is, okay, so what’s going to keep me from doing that and then getting real about that? Because, you know, if you’re going to try to lead and you’re going to create your vision, that bubble outside, every one of your employees heads is going to be like, We can’t do that.

00;21;42;25 – 00;21;58;25
Unknown

We are not people. You’re not the one that’s going to take me there. You don’t have experience doing that. Whatever those things are. Then you get real about it after you have that vision, because you want to make sure that you can lead through it. And sometimes you can, even from a messaging perspective, get ahead of it by acknowledging those barriers or even flipping in your head.

00;21;58;25 – 00;22;22;12
Unknown

You’re like, I know that right now we’re a small company, but my vision is to take on Amazon. But that means we’re going to be David and Goliath. I mean, I think sometimes it’s just important to take those things head on, and sometimes you can even turn some of those weaknesses into strengths. There’s a political example that I can give you, which is not a popular one, but when Donald Trump was running for president, he had no political experience and that was his detriment.

00;22;22;14 – 00;22;38;17
Unknown

So rather than running away from that or trying to, you know, say, who cares? He was like, you know what? No, I don’t have any political experience. I’m a businessman. I’m going to go in there and make deals like you’ve never seen deals made before, and I’m going to drain that swamp. It was like he knew that was a weakness and he leaned right into it.

00;22;38;20 – 00;22;56;26
Unknown

And I think sometimes we can do the same thing. Are you a you know, are you a boutique firm or a small firm going up against the big guy? Well, you can use your your small nimbleness to your strengths. Are you somebody who doesn’t have the experience? Well, you can be like, yeah, I don’t have experience in industry, but that’s a strength because I can come in and this is all new to me.

00;22;56;26 – 00;25;33;29
Unknown

So if you can convince me, then you can convince anyone. And I think sometimes we really need to be able to lean into our our vulnerabilities or our weaknesses and turn them into strengths. And, you know, true leaders do that. I mean, Burning Brown is written a lot about vulnerability and authenticity. And I think that we need to be very real about.