Episode 29: Championing DE&I in a Climate of Apathy & Economic Uncertainty

Transcript

0:00 – 1:20
Chris Thornton  
And hello, welcome back to Change@Work. I’m Chris Thornton, Senior Principal here at Daggerwing Group. Currently. I’m coming down off a high of Nutella Bombaloni’s pasta and negronis (that kind of rhymes). I just got back from a trip to Rome with my family. I got to say, traveling is great. It’s a really great thing. Get out, see the world. Go to Rome. I’ve got tips for you if you need them – including some incredible bakeries. In today’s episode we talk to one of our only recurring guests, Daniel Oppong – founder of Courage Collective. You’re going to hear him talk about some amazing insights on how we can support people of minority groups – both personally and professionally. He discusses how the DE&I space has been met with apathy as of late by far too many people, and what organizations can do to overcome this. And we also talk about what song will get him on the dance floor. So, it’s a pretty wide-ranging and incredible conversation. Always a joy to have him, real pleasure to talk to him. He’s so knowledgeable in the DE&I space and in the ‘life’ space. Such a joy to speak with, here’s our conversation with Daniel Oppong.

1:21 – 1:38
Chris Thornton  
Joining us once again is Daniel Oppong, founder of Courage Collective – a diversity, equity, and inclusion consultancy. Daniel also has experience in entrepreneurship, venture capital, tech, consulting, education, and the non-profit sector, and we’ve presented together at a conference – it was great.

1:21 – 1:38
Daniel Oppong 
It was great.

1:38 – 1:47
Chris Thornton  
It was great, see you had to say it because I led you there, but you did have to say that it was great, I got to be honest. It was great presenting with you.

1:47 – 1:53
Daniel Oppong 
I agree though. We did our thing. I thought it was a really solid presentation. Mostly kudos to you.

1:53 – 2:00
Chris Thornton  
Okay, why is that? No one gives me kudos on this podcast so I’m going to just dig in there – why kudos to me?

2:00 – 2:10
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, I think you did like a mini stand-up routine at the beginning as part of the vibe – so people were laughing which opened their minds.

2:10 – 2:16
Chris Thornton 
Oh, they got our names completely wrong, do you remember that?

2:16 – 2:18
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, Daggerwing – missed that one.

2:18 – 2:30
Chris Thornton 
It’s fine, it was great. You just take those moments and we laugh and smile and we’re glad to have people’s attention. It was very nice of them to give us a platform. Daniel, how’ve you been? You’ve been on here before.

2:30 – 2:40
Daniel Oppong  
Things are good. Life’s been good, business is interesting, given the current climate but I think on a personal level and within the team, things are great.

2:40 – 2:43
Chris Thornton  
What do you mean ‘interesting’ from a business perspective?

2:43 – 3:19
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, so I think, you know, when we look at the current climate with the work that we do specifically – DE&I work – definitely a different energy around it than when we first spoke. And so I think when we first spoke, kind of fever pitch, a lot of energy, a lot of activity as it relates to DE&I – but fast forward to 2023 and I think it’s a little bit more of an apathy or ambivalence around the topic. And so that has made the work that we’re doing a little bit more nuanced, I would say, in this climate than when we first met.

3:19 – 3:45
Chris Thornton  
I just did the numbers, so it’s been two years. And apathy, when we last spoke, apathy – what a horrific type of description. Like apathy is a trait to say that’s exactly the opposite of what we want. But apathy seems dangerous. When you think about the dangers of apathy, what goes through your head?

3:45 – 4:12
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, I think that a lot of the action with DE&I specifically was pretty reactive. People felt like they had to react to the present moment and probably sprung up some initiatives that actually didn’t work, and I think had a shirt-sighted view. They’re thinking about it more as an initiative than an employee experience imperative, and I think because of that, when you try things that don’t work, you get a little bit apathetic. And so I think that’s part of the sentiment that we felt in the work of late.

4:12 – 4:29
Chris Thornton 
Yeah. ‘So I did my thing, we tried really hard, we did a couple of workshops and convened a couple of oversight committees – so we did that and DE&I is fine now for us.’ Is that what you’re experiencing, or am I being to cavalier?

4:29 – 4:59
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, I think it’s that and then I think about the broader economic climate – people aren’t hiring as much as they were and I think a lot of companies thought about DE&I specifically through the lens of hiring and you know, if you’re not hiring, you’re not bringing in new people, and that’s where your initiatives start and stop. I think it creates a little bit of a challenge. So that’s one of the things we’ve observed more broadly, however, there are some companies that are really engaged still, but I think those companies thought about it a little bit differently than a one-off initiative.

5:00 – 5:39
Chris Thornton 
Okay. So, not to ask you to do free labor, but if I’m someone who’s trying to bust through that apathy, and you’ve got a leader – I’ll play the leader – (and maybe this will work, maybe it won’t but I’ll play the apathetic leader), what do you say to get that person’s attention and, you know, this is hypothetical so who knows exactly what’s going on at that business, but let’s assume it’s somebody who cared back when we last spoke and they’ve become apathetic and are focusing on other things. What do you say to that person to jolt them into giving a shit about things?

5:39 – 6:27
Daniel Oppong 
Two things I would say. So the first one is, as demographics are shifting in the world, no brand can say they have a growth strategy if they don’t have an intersectional and multicultural strategy to go with it. We’re thinking about shifting demographics – both from a consumer base perspective as well as people who are going to be coming into your organization. And if you want to grow and be relevant to people as you grow, you have to consider the unique identities that you’re either going to be serving as customers or that are going to be coming into your organization as employees. So that’s number one. And I think number two, I would say you have different types of people in your organization, and we know that different identities experience organizational cultures in different ways. So, if you want your people to stay and have a good experience, it’s something that you have to consider.

6:27 – 6:30
Chris Thornton 
I’m so glad I asked you that, that was beautiful.

6:30 – 6:35
Daniel Oppong 
That was a softball, you kind of teed that one up for me.

6:36 – 7:17
Chris Thornton 
Well, let’s get tougher. I have never seen it with my clients (thank god) but one of the things that I know about a recession or uncertainty – whatever it is that we’re in right now, I think uncertainty is a pretty good description even if it’s not quite the recession we thought it would be at this point – things start to get cut. And good intentions fly out the window when people are looking for dollars to save and I have to believe that some are looking at DE&I initiatives, or functions, or people, staff, etc., are you seeing it? Are you seeing the cutting of budgets, the defunding of promises?

7:17 – 7:38
Daniel Oppong  
Yeah, I saw one data point the other day that said DE&I spending has decreased as much as 50 or 60 percent this year, and so that’s definitely something that’s been happening. And then, specifically with heads of DE&I – those roles – I think there’s a data point that said they decrease 20 ish percent in the last 12 to 18 months.

7:38 – 8:02
Chris Thornton  
My emotional response to that is pretty significant and it makes me sick and then I’ve always taught myself to question the emotional reaction – are those okay? Are we okay the heads of DE&I have decreased significantly? What’s the harm that we have to think about and then we should anticipate being caused by the decrease of funding and elimination of roles?

8:02 – 9:04
Daniel Oppong  
I think the elimination of roles – part of it I would attribute to the fact that those folks weren’t set up to succeed in the first place. So if you think about, you know, one person can’t drive organizational change for everyone – like that’s just not real – and so I think from a design perspective, the way that a lot of these roles came to be was like ‘okay, we need one person to leas this initiative’ (which I think has value, but they weren’t given enough resources, they weren’t given enough team, they didn’t have the executive leadership buy-in). And so from a design perspective, they didn’t have what they needed to be fully successful. And so when they didn’t succeed, people were like ‘okay, well we need to reconsider this.’ And so, I think for me the opportunity is let’s think about it more holistically and how can we get all people leaders, executive leaders – anyone who has a business function – to consider equity and inclusion in their practices. That’s more the opportunity – putting it on one person feels like you’re setting it up for failure anyways.

9:04 – 9:53
Chris Thornton  
For sure, yeah if it was all about that one person to begin with and now, we’re going to decrease and the organization isn’t going to do anything, it tells you where the intentions were – performative at best. So Daniel, when we last spoke, the marketplace for workers was different and hiring talent – everybody was trying to find great talent, you couldn’t find anybody now , that doesn’t seem to be as much of a challenge for people because layoffs are starting to happen or have been happening, and when you think about how it typically goes of first in, first out, I have to believe that that is going to affect diverse candidates more than non-diverse candidates. Is that a fair assumption or am I completely off base?

9:53 – 11:07
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, I think that a lot of organizations in the wake of 2020 did focus their hiring efforts on bringing in people from marginalized groups – so we’re talking about people of color, Black and Brown folks, LGBTQ folks, etc., and so I think with that, there was some energy and focus on creating equity and inclusion within the organization and so I think once those initiatives were put on pause or those people were let go, it signals what the organization is prioritizing to a certain degree. So for example, we had one client – they had a DE&I committee they started in 2020, they were also doing it in 2021, and when their rift happened, basically everyone who was part of the DE&I committee got let go. And so, part of the challenge there is you’ve empowered these people to pursue these initiatives but then when you cut their roles, the question is ‘is it still a priority?’ So not only does it have an impact on the initiatives specifically, it also has an impact on morale, it also has an impact on people thinking ‘well okay, if I want to come work at this organization, do they value the things that I value as well?’ And so I think the recession has been, or the fear of a recession, has been one of the catalysts that really is impacting DE&I initiatives.

11:07 – 11:26
Chris Thornton 
If I were really smart and I’m in the talent management category, should I challenge myself to say ‘hey wait a minute, what’s the long-term impact of this first in first out?’ I mean, I’ve got to believe the answer is yes, right? So how do we even start to ask those questions myself?

11:26 – 12:07
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, I think when we’re working with organizations, the main thing we ask them to consider is when you look at a reduction in force, who is disproportionately being impacted and how might that affect both I think employee experience, I think people’s sentiment towards the organization more broadly, and I think just the idea of congruence – so you said one thing and your actions maybe aren’t lining up to the thing you said, how do I reconcile that? And I think employees who are left at organizations are often left wondering or asking that specific question. So to me, I think the opportunity – you have to consider who’s being impacted, what is going to be the impact on morale, and what is going to be the impact on the things you’ve said are a priority.

12:08 – 13:51
Chris Thornton 
Real life story from one of my clients – they were doing talent assessment, it turns out that a few folks weren’t performing or they weren’t meeting the collective expectation. Turns out they were almost all people who weren’t White male. And the leadership started looking at that group and there was a quick action of ‘okay, put them on a performance improvement plan – let’s go, let’s move, we need to shrink anyway s let’s take action.’ And what this client did was – somebody, and I don’t know who – spoke up and said ‘could we please look at the people that we’ve just identified?’ And apparently there was a lot of Teams messages happening behind the scenes going ‘none of them are White guys,’ and they talked about it as a leadership team to say ‘this is very telling, why are all of our underperformers not White males?’ And instead of putting those people on performance improvement plans, which would’ve likely ended in termination, they were given additional resources instead to say ‘we did something wrong here that we have only people who are not White men on our underperformer list.’ It was a really important moment for that leadership team, and I won’t say they were proud of themselves, I’d say they were ashamed they didn’t see it before they got there.

13:51 – 14:35
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, I think it’s a really great example, Chris because we have to consider who is set up to succeed and then specifically when you come from a historically marginalized group, can you take the same risks with an organization, can you ask for what you need, can you be as assertive without being categorized as aggressive. Like some of these things that people who come from those identity groups are consistently weighing and so I think when it’s illuminating to look at ‘okay, who are we going to let go, why are they underperforming?’ that’s the question we have to ask. Do they have what they need to be successful, are we investing in their growth and development, do they feel seen, valued, and supported – all of those things are very telling, and it sounds like the client you were working with did that investigation.

14:35 – 14:57
Chris Thornton 
Yeah, they did. Thank goodness before they started taking action. And I think the challenge is how do we not get to that point. Why des it have to take a talent review? But you start where you start and you keep going where you are and you just keep getting better. Not on our list – what’s breaking your heart right now and then what’s giving you joy? And it could be personal, it could be professional.

14:57 – 15:53
Daniel Oppong 
What is breaking my heart – I think about of late, a lot of the anti-trans, or anti LGBTQ+ legislation that’s been coming through – and I think the thing that breaks my heart about it is just the dehumanization that’s happening. The idea that just because we have different orientations, you shouldn’t have the same liberties or access or ability to live a full and free life, and that’s just really disheartening. And the fact that it gets written into policy and then propagated across the country, and so I think the effect or impact is telling people that your identity isn’t significant or doesn’t matter as much as others. And I just don’t think that that’s any way to live. So that part’s disheartening. I think about what’s giving me joy…

15:53 – 17:22
Chris Thornton 
Wait let’s stay on breaking your heart a little bit. The willingness of some people and companies to, not even dehumanize, but to not see someone as human, is terrifying to me. And I’ve got several, I mean look at me, I have several friends who are trans. I have people that I care deeply, deeply about who I know are being targeted because of these policies, and I quite frankly don’t know what to do. And I’m not asking you to give me a solution, because that’s not fair, but I truly feel helpless right now. I have no idea what to do, how to get into action, how to – not solve it (I almost said solve it, I’m quite the hero today), but I want to save them. I don’t want hem hurt. I don’t want their lives destroyed. And when I think about how inadequate my response has been, I feel deep, deep shame – I just want to say that, I’m not asking you to solve it for me – but if you have a reaction, I’d love to hear it.

17:22 – 18:37
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, I think two things come up for me when you shared that. The first is I always want to connect with the unique human experience of the person that’s being affected or impacted. And by that, asking them ‘what do you need to feel supported?’ ‘what do you need to feel seen?’ ‘what do you need to feel affirmed?’ And just interpersonally, doing what I can to show up for that person, whatever that looks like. For some people that could be just having a conversation, acknowledging their humanity, whatever. I think that’s a starting place. I think the second thing I would say is we all have our own spheres of influence – so for you, you’re a leader in an organization, so within your sphere of influence, can you consider those identities that might be in your workspace and asking (whether it’s the other executive leaders, the HR team, the clients that you’re working with), ‘do you all have equitable policy for trans folks in your organization?’ Like that is something that you directly can impact and influence. And so, I think sometimes it can feel really disheartening when we only think macro – like I’m not a politician, I have no aspiration of being there – but I do have a sphere of influence that I can impact, and I think everyone does. And so that’s place where we can, you know, we can start as individuals.

18:37 – 19:00
Chris Thornton 
I don’t have a good response except to say thank you, that was a real gift. Thank you. The paralysis of inaction and shame is not helpful right now when you need to support other people. Let’s get to some joy – what’s bringing you joy right now?

19:00 – 19:53
Daniel Oppong 
What’s giving me joy? I’ve really enjoyed some of the, like interpersonal moments that I’ve been able to have and cultivate probably since we started this business. But just seeing how things have evolved, I think sometimes it’s hard to recognize how far you’ve come and so we’ve had a few moments lately that just serve as a reminder of like ‘oh yeah, we’re really doing this thing and we have great people that we get to collaborate with along the way.’ I think I got connected to Daggerwing through this process, so it’s been great to reengage with you, connected with some folks who run a PR company out of LA – they’ve been fantastic to connect with. I just think there are moments, interpersonal moments of connection, that just remind you how sweet life can be and just that there really are good-hearted people who are trying to make an impact. And so those are some of the things that are giving me joy as well as just the collaboration with my current colleagues.

19:53 – 20:31
Chris Thornton 
One of the things that’s bringing me joy when it comes to you and your team is the recognition that you’re getting – you’re getting some external validation and recognition and awards, and you know when you see somebody getting – you know how good they are because they’ve already impacted your life and then you start to see the recognition they’re getting and other people see it and get it. When you think about companies that are using your – the totality of your super powers, or super powers of your team that you haven’t seen others use – what comes to mind?

20:31 – 21:35
Daniel Oppong 
I think a few things. We had a conversation last week which was really energizing, and I think one of the things with that group in particular is their disposition was just open and ready to learn, and they had already done a lot of their foundational work. So I think about exponential being like one plus one equals a million, whenever people have done that you come together and it really, exponentially you see some change. And so I think some of the clients that we’ve been engaging of late – you know, they have a foundation, they come in eager and ready to learn, and then they’re ready to take action. And so for us, it’s less of a ‘we need to prove why this is valuable/convince’, and we actually just get to show up and put our energy together and see really cool things happening – good conversations, meaningful change, people feeling their identity is affirmed. It’s kind of like an exhale, you know? You can just take a deep breath and just settle into the space instead of feeling like you have to convince or push against. When I about people that are leveraging our super powers, that’s what comes to mind.

21:35 – 21:54
Chris Thornton 
If you were to encourage organizations to keep up the momentum on diversity initiatives right now – avoiding the performative tactics that don’t work/aren’t going to have the impact they could if they focused on things that really matter – anything come to mind? What they should be thinking about right now.

21:42 – 23:04
Daniel Oppong 
Yeah, a couple of things. I think always starting with listening – so whether that’s an inclusion and belonging survey or a focus groups to just get a pulse on where your people are, how are they experiencing the organization – that’s always a great place to start. I also think about things like affinity groups or employee resource groups as a way to create unique spaces for unique identities in which they can feel affirmed, validated, connected with other people in the organization who are like them. And then I think the other piece would be taking a step back and thinking about the employee experience. And so again, as I mentioned earlier, different people experience the culture in different ways, and so if we want to create a space where people can experience a sense of belonging, we need to invest in that. So it’s inextricable, in mind, from the employee experience – it shouldn’t just be a one-off initiative, and we should just be thinking about it more holistically. I think the last thing I would say is just with people managers – we’ve been getting a lot of requests of late with people leaders and people managers asking ‘okay, well how do I manage the team effectively?’ And so investing in your people leaders who are directly connected to the employees, I think that’s one of the ways that I think DE&I can come to life.

23:04 – 23:25
Chris Thornton 
Normally we start every podcast with getting to know our guest, but we know you, so we’re going to end with getting to know you a little bit better. Let’s say we’re at a party, people are dancing. Do you dance?

23:25 – 23:29
Daniel Oppong 
Depends on the occasion.

23:29 – 23:46
Chris Thornton 
Let’s say it’s an occasion where you would feel comfortable going out on the dance floor. So I don’t know what that is – but you’re not on the floor, you’re near it, you see it, you see people dancing – what song Is going to motivate you to get up and dance? Like you have to.

23:46 – 24:06
Daniel Oppong 
Oh wow. That’s a really interesting question. I see all these videos of late, for fun in IG or TikTok that are like throwbacks to the early 2000s and hip hop music at that time. So the first one that came to mind is ‘Teach Me How to Dougie,’ you know that song?

24:06 – 24:07
Chris Thornton 
Oh yeah, I do.

24:07 – 24:17
Daniel Oppong 
But yeah, that’s the first one that came to mind because I watched the video this morning and this guy was talking about how he threw out his shoulder, like throwback to 2014 because he was dancing to that song.

24:17 – 24:34
Chris Thornton 
That’s beautiful, I love that. Alright, guilty pleasures, you got any? Wait, let me share first because that’s not fair. I will watch The Real Housewives of New Jersey.’

24:34 – 24:35
Daniel Oppong 
Really?

24:35 – 24:40
Chris Thornton 
Absolutely. Do I think it’s terrible? Sure.

24:40 – 24:41
Daniel Oppong 
Okay, what about it is enticing?

24:41 – 24:43
Chris Thornton 
Well first of all, it’s New Jersey where I live.

24:43 – 24:44
Daniel Oppong 
And do you have a favorite character?

24:44 – 25:13
Chris Thornton 
Well, such a good question – all good questions. So what I like about it is I live in New Jersey. I don’t necessarily hang with people that live in very large homes – kind of a smaller ranch-style community where we live.

25:11 – 25:13
Daniel Oppong 
So not the obnoxiously affluent type.

25:13 – 25:23
Chris Thornton 
Listen, I don’t want to say obnoxiously affluent – I just said I live on a one-story ranch so that’s all I’m saying.

25:23 – 25:24
Daniel Oppong 
I respect it.

25:24 – 26:20
Chris Thornton 
Alright, and I love my house, and I’m so happy for the housewives and the house husbands, and wherever they live. And I wish them all well – almost all of them. I wish almost all of them well. What I like about it? It’s so fun to see how TV is produced, like you can see how everything is manipulated so that they actually have storylines, because there’s nothing happening of – somebody said something about somebody that wasn’t at that – and so you can see the producer like (not actually see the producer) but the effect they have in ‘okay, now I need you to be really offended by that, and I need you to bring this up.’ And it’s just – that level of storytelling over multiple sessions, over hours is really incredible to see. I’m always impressed by the producers.

26:20 – 26:23
Daniel Oppong 
So would you want to be a character or a producer on that show?

26:23 – 26:47
Chris Thornton 
No, however, would I like to be in the background at somebody’s party? Yeah, I’d like to be the background. Would I always be making eye contact with the camera going ‘what the hell is going on?’ Like that would be me going ‘I don’t know, this is crazy.’ I’d always be giving reaction shots. So please put me in the background, Andy Cohen. Alright, what’s your guilty pleasure?

26:47 – 26:59
Daniel Oppong 
I don’t actually feel that guilty about it, but I have a sweets obsession and my current delight – have you heard of ‘Crumbl Cookies’?

27:00 – 27:05
Chris Thornton 
I know Crumbl Cookies. My wife just told me the latest new flavor today, yes let’s go. So let’s talk about Crumbl.

27:05 – 27:20
Daniel Oppong 
Dude, weekly. You have – it’s like a mosque at this point. And I think what they did that’s genius is they change up the flavors every week so you have to look and see, and it’s enticing, it draws you in. I mean, Crumbl Cookies. Guilty pleasure…without guilt.

27:20 – 27:37
Chris Thornton  
A lot of people say you can’t eat a whole Crumbl cookie. And I will tell you that’s a lie, yes you can absolutely eat a whole Crumbl cookie. I can do that, like I’ve proved them wrong so many times.

27:37 – 27:38
Daniel Oppong 
Like how can you not eat multiple is the real question.

27:38 – 27:39
Chris Thornton 
So that’s where I was going.

27:39 – 27:48
Daniel Oppong 
Did you have this thing where you can cut the cookies into four? Right, and so you get a little taste and you can go in on whichever one you like the most. So, guilty pleasure for sure.

27:48 – 28:14
Chris Thornton 
Alright, if you don’t know Crumbl cookie, folks it’s C-R-U-M-B-L. It was in the New York Times recently as one of the fastest growing franchisees. Go check them out if they’re not near you, but wait like two minutes there’ll probably be one popping up next to you. Pro tip for new listeners or new Crumbl visitors, you’ve got to get the app, you got to order on the app. Don’t stand in line.

28:14 – 28:15
Daniel Oppong 
Rookie mistake for sure.

28:17 – 28:21
Chris Thornton 
Bypass the line. Always bypass the line. Daniel, anything we didn’t talk about today that we should’ve?

28:21 – 28:40
Daniel Oppong 
I think the last thing just holistically that I would say is that we all have continued work today. And so if you’re thinking about it as a one-off initiative, let’s think about DE&I as an ongoing employee experience imperative. That’s the last thing that I would leave you with.

28:40 – 28:52
Chris Thornton 
Daniel Oppong, Founder of the Courage Collective. Thank you so much. You’re in very rarified air of being a return guest. Please come back, love talking to you – really, really do.

28:53 – 28:54
Daniel Oppong 
Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.

28:54 – 28:55
Chris Thornton 
Absolutely.