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Episode 33: Navigating Disruption Through Deep Collaboration

Dr Tanvi Gautam, MD, Founder of Leadershift Inc., Global HR influencer, Program director & faculty at Singapore Management University (ExD) and author joins us for this episode of Change@Work. She and host, Chris Thornton, discuss the framework for her new book, Deep Collaboration: 5 crucial conversations to accelerate performance across silos (2024), where the field of human-centric change is headed, and the need to embrace the uncomfortable to fuel our own growth.

Transcript

This transcript was automatically generated with artificial intelligence. It’s in the queue to go through a review with human eyes!

Chris Thornton:

Hello and welcome back to Change@Work. I’m your host, Chris Thornton. This week we welcome Dr. Tanvi Gautam. Tanvi is the founder of Leaders Upgraded, formerly known as Leadership Inc., a program director and faculty member at the Singapore Management University an author keynote speaker. Folks, the list goes on and on. From Accenture to Coca-Cola, Dr. Tanvi has led teams through an age of disruption far before COVID-19 transformed our ways of working.

In our discussion, Tanvi walks us through her new book called Deep Collaboration: Five Crucial Conversations to Accelerate Team Performance Across Silos, what tools and trends, she believes will be increasingly important in years to come, and the importance of not sitting with the comfortable and constantly challenging ourselves to grow. There’s so much more we can say about Dr. Tanvi, but we’ll let her speak for herself. Here she is… Enjoy the conversation…

Chris:

Tanvi, How are you or can I call you “Dr. Tanvi”? What do you like?

Tanvi:

Either works. Whatever.

Chris:

I like Dr. Tanvi. Think that feels really good. So, you may hear Dr. Tanvi today.

Dr. Tanvi:

I feel honored. Thank you.

Chris:

So, I think I’m about 12 hours behind you today, so let’s just see… how was your day?

Dr. Tanvi:

The future looks good. I think you’re going to have a nice day.

Chris:

I really appreciate that. Thank you for that. I’m trusting you and believe in you on that. I need a good day. Before we dig into our deep conversation, let’s let’s just check out who you are as a person and get to know you.

If you had not been in the field of culture, in leadership development, what would you have been pursuing as maybe something else in your career?

Dr. Tanvi:

I would have been an F-16 combat fighter pilot.

Chris:

Oh my gosh – wow! That I didn’t expect. I love it. Tell me why.

Dr. Tanvi:

Well, I feel the need, the need for speed.

Chris:

Absolutely.

Dr. Tanvi:

Went and saw Top Gun and completely fell in love with the original storyline and the Indian Air Force, where I was growing up at that time, didn’t take any women. So, they lost a really good pilot.

Chris:

Yeah. Shame on them. Who do you identify with in Top Gun? Is it is it Tom Cruise’s character? Are we going to goose root like hoo hoo, we after here? Please don’t be goose. Please don’t be goose. It doesn’t end well for go. Spoiler alert for Top Gun!

Dr. Tanvi:

No, I think it definitely has to be Maverick. I mean, I’m somebody who has that need to keep pushing boundaries.

Chris:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I love it. What a great answer. This is already the best interview. Well done. Well done.

All right. Next question; as someone in leadership development, if you could add one skill to your own personal development, what would that skill be? I’ve been trying for a very long time. So if you know any coaches or books I should be reading on this one, I’d appreciate it. It’s the skill of patience.

Chris:

Oh no, no, no. You’re talking to the wrong person. Keep going.

Dr. Tanvi:

You know, when I was just when I turned 13, my dad gave me a postcard for my birthday, and it said, Dear God, send me patience, but hurry.

Chris:

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I don’t know. I don’t know if someone in the field of advising leaders on disruption… It’s… patience is really tough, isn’t it? That urgency is really helpful to have a little bit of an engine to push forward. Right? Or a big engine to push forward?

Dr. Tanvi:

Yeah, I think it’s it’s more of my internal conversation that I don’t verbalize normally, but sometimes it can be like, can we just get this done? And the thing with things, as you well know, is that you have to meet people where they’re at.

Chris:

Yeah.

Dr. Tanvi:

So, you know, managing my own expectations is part of the conversation.

Chris:

Well, if you do figure out patience, would you please come back on and let us know?

Dr. Tanvi:

I will let you know. We have our support group.

Chris:

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I will be the first member. My name is Chris, and I do have a problem with patience.

All right, let’s get into the conversation, the deeper conversation. You’ve been focused on leadership in the age of disruption from way before the pandemic, right?

Dr. Tanvi:

Yes, Way before it became a thing. And everybody became an expert on disruption.

Chris: 

What about disruption? Did you say… that’s where I can focus… that’s where I can help you?

Dr. Tanvi:

You know, it’s so interesting, but no one has really asked me that question before, so I’m really glad that you brought it up. I think for me, it has been personal before. It has been professional. And I think it’s because in my own journey, I have faced disruption a few times and, you know, much as we think it’s this fantastic term that people like to throw around like confetti, the picture at the back of what a true disruption looks like is not true at all.

And I just want to kind of take a quick moment to define how do I define disruption, very simple terms, which is just making disruption off the norm, the known resources, the known frameworks, the known involvement, the known tools, technology, whatever that might be. And disruption pretty much is when our mindset, our resources in the current form are not adequate because they were meant for a different world that either is coming to an end or has come to an end already. And so, you have to upgrade yourself in so many ways, which is why we recently rebranded the company and now we are “LeadersUpgraded.com” because you have to constantly keep upgrading yourself. And so, it was personal before it became professional I suppose. And then there’s a very famous saying which some of your listeners may have heard, which is “As within so without.” Which is loosely translated as “What you see in the outside world is a fair reflection of the world inside of you.” And so I was attracting a lot of clients who were trying to navigate, you know, the world of disruption. And some of them were trying to mindfully disrupt themselves before they got disrupted. And so it ended up being a match made in heaven in some ways, because I had been reading up and having these conversations with people trying to understand – for very selfish reasons – on what does it really mean to be, you know, leading yourself in the age of destruction and then translating to what does it mean to lead others in the age of disruption. And so it went from the personal to the professional. And frankly, when the pandemic hit, my first thought was, “My God, it’s prime time…” everything I’ve been talking about, but no one’s been listening to… they’re all going to listen now.

Chris:

Yeah, sure. They sure are. One of our clients, the CEO, an internal mantra of many others or things that they focus on is “disrupt yourself before you get disrupted.” Any reactions to that? I see you at least acknowledging any thoughts on how what that means to you?

Dr. Tanvi:

100%. It’s one of my it’s one of my core values of life. I very carefully watch when I start coasting along and when I start finding that I’m very comfortable is when I start questioning what do I need to do to make myself uncomfortable? Because I’d rather make myself uncomfortable than an external circumstance come along. Because what it means, I haven’t stretched myself enough. And, you know, it’s really funny, but it’s amazing how sometimes things happen. So, in the December of 2019 was the first time when I attempted to launch an online program, an open enrollment. You could join from anywhere in the world.

And normally I only work directly with clients. And it was like pulling teeth because, you know, doing a program on your own is very different than if you’re working with brands that know you, respect you. They already understand what you’re talking about. And I, I told myself, I said, I don’t want to ever do this again. This has been really difficult for me. But, I had gone in that direction mindfully. We launched the course in February 2020, March 2020 the pandemic hits. All the work that I was doing comes to a standstill. The world shuts down. I can’t jump on a plane and go wherever I want. That program literally kept me sane. And so even without knowing it, I was, you know, staying true to that value of, you know, to stop yourself before you get disrupted. And how the dots connected is something that just reinforced my belief in that idea.

Chris:

So, this isn’t something that you just talk about or train people on. You’ve actually written a book on this, is that right?

Dr. Tanvi: 

Yes. It’s one of the related topics. The book is called Deep Collaboration, and I believe that deep collaboration is what is needed to navigate the world of disruption. And right now, and even during the pandemic, frankly, a lot of the organizations were reorganizing internally their business lines, how they want to go to market, etc. And there was a huge push on working across silos. And they kept coming in saying, you know, we’d love to work across all of this, but we’re not quite sure how to do this, and where do we even begin? And so a lot of a lot of my conversation got focused on that aspect. And one of the things I realized was that it all starts with having some crucial conversations, that then in deep collaboration, deep collaboration in contrast to a superficial collaboration. And so if you want to be a leader in the world of disruption or post-pandemic, whatever this might mean for you, right, you need to pay attention to deep collaboration.

 

So when we think about deep collaboration and the crucial conversations and disruption, what are some of the conversations I might need to focus on across across silos or teams? So there are five that that I have chosen for. And you know, you could have 100 different topics that you could talk about, but these are the ones that I’ve chosen because I know for a fact that they are the fundamental, non-negotiable building blocks of deep collaboration.

00;11;21;23 – 00;11;53;20

And so just really quickly, the first one is around deep inspiration. What is fueling this collaboration to begin with? And the answer we’d like to make more business or get a better market share is not going to cut it. Okay. The second one is around deep learning, because I do believe that innovation happens at intersections and for that to happen, people need to be able to understand the world that people occupy across the silos.

00;11;53;20 – 00;12;20;09

And so it’s the second one. The third one is deep friction, which is all about navigating the inevitable conflict that comes when you are trying to collaborate at a deeper level. Then there is deep strategy Rising, which is taking conversations on strategy, a level deeper and finally deep daring. It is all about risk and uncertainty and navigating the .

00;12;20;09 – 00;12;46;12

So those are the five conversations. So let me talk about reality today and and what I’m going to be doing and why I love everything you just said so much is that we’re going into an RFP response today. I’m going to be as general as possible, obviously. And by the time this podcast comes out, well, we’ll know if we want or not.

00;12;46;14 – 00;13;16;29

What? Absolutely. When it knock on wood and everything else. But one of the things that I see in the client is they asked for a strategic partner, right? We want a strategic partner that will push or that will help us connect, that will help us do more together, that will help us collaborate, that will help us have a bigger, bolder vision, that will help us have the courage to get beyond.

00;13;16;29 – 00;13;51;27

No, we can’t do that because we’ve asked before, right? Or we’ve tried it before and it didn’t work right. So let’s not try again. And when they asked for those things, we took them seriously, as you should, right? We thought. We thought that we thought they were really serious about it. And as we get into this very, very long and if they’re listening very important and fruitful and not at all frustrating process right where we uncovered they said it, they wrote it in the RFP, That’s what we want.

00;13;51;29 – 00;14;15;29

But as we talked to them, none of them had a shared vision of what better looked like. None of them have the appetite or awareness that actually we could do more together and it would be better if we learned how to have these intersection moments where we come together and push through and create better. Have you ever face that with a client where they say, We want this?

00;14;15;29 – 00;14;34;18

And then when you get into it, they go, well, we didn’t mean we didn’t really mean that, right? It sounds good on paper, but when we get into the reality of it, this is actually hard work. Any thoughts there? If you face that and then how you help them move past their hesitation? I don’t know, Chris. All my clients are very enlightened, okay?

00;14;34;21 – 00;15;00;05

Absolutely. I’m so sorry. It’s just this one client I’m talking about, I guess, and I’m so empathetic for them. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. And this that the deck is stacked against them and being able to take risk and be bold and have that ambition. But but they’re not living up to what they actually wrote on on paper thoughts there.

00;15;00;08 – 00;15;29;27

It’s no different than every time I see I want to lose weight and then I go and eat ice cream at night instead of going in. Absolutely. The gap between espoused values and lived values. As we say in the world of change. And till that that gap becomes super critical. And my doctor says, you’re pre-diabetic. Chances are I’m not going to give up that because the pain is not not strong enough for me to do anything about it.

00;15;29;27 – 00;16;07;17

So, I mean, I was only half joking when I said all my clients are enlightened in life. They probably wouldn’t need me. Yes. Yeah. Fair. It’s it is about dialing in to what’s the cost of not doing this right. And if they can’t really articulate it, then that change becomes that much more difficult. And I’m just facing right this and I say this in my book that on one hand organizations talk about like, we want to want to take risks and we want to take that famous thing about fail forward and all that, that we keep going right in the change completely.

00;16;07;19 – 00;16;34;21

But then when it comes to things like recognition and reward and scaffolding, the people who are taking risk, there isn’t enough done. So the infrastructure for taking risk is missing, even though they blueprint is being drawn up. But who’s going to stick their neck out and take a risk? If I think my career is going to be SD Or who wants to be responsible for that $6 billion loss?

00;16;34;22 – 00;17;06;17

Nobody. So people need to have honest, unedited conversations about do we let’s not fool ourselves, Are we ready to do that? And if we are not, what? What’s the threshold of risks To tell you a story? Because I’m so Please, I so much work on storytelling, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I was we were working on this change program with one of my clients and specifically in the senior leadership team meeting that we had.

00;17;06;17 – 00;17;27;15

And of course people were like worried about this cross at work. I’m like, Who likes cross? It’ll work. It’s extra work. I write this. What do you have to like? Influence without authority? You know this. You don’t go that naturally unless you have to. So always. The people were a little bit reluctant, but they didn’t want to say this in front of others because who wants to be the one to build a cad, etc..

00;17;27;17 – 00;17;43;29

But you know, I had worked with the CEO beforehand about what did he want his change narrative to be, and he became the voice of the skeptics in the room. And one of the most amazing things he did, I didn’t know he was going to do this when he did it, but I loved it and I put it in the book as well.

00;17;44;02 – 00;18;12;24

He openly named the three metrics that he was absolutely willing to take a hit on in process of transformation. Yeah. So for the next one year, if we drop 20 points in these three metrics, which I know matter to all of you, which all of you are striving very hard for, I’m okay, you have the permission slip to do this because I know we will have to take a step back.

00;18;12;24 – 00;18;38;06

Just like in the slingshot. You have to pull it back before you go forward. And I’ve got your back. I’m not going to be asking you what’s going on and explain this to me, etc.. You should have just seen the energy. And I mean, that was a leader who was indoor icing and recognizing that, you know, when you are in the messy middle, some things are going to not go that well.

00;18;38;06 – 00;18;58;15

And that’s the cost of the transformation you’re undertaking. Really, really love that story. Thank you for that was great. When you think about the five conversations that you mentioned, if you had to choose one and I know they’re all interconnected, but if you had to choose one, which one do you think is the hardest or is it contextual?

00;18;58;15 – 00;19;19;18

It just depends on where they are at or is there a more universal, hard conversation? And I’ve been asked this question on so many podcasts, and I always turn back to the host. Yeah. So let me ask you, because all I will say is the same conversation that comes back no matter what country, what industry, what stage of transformation.

00;19;19;18 – 00;19;52;01

It’s amazing. Like so far I haven’t seen an exception to this. So let me give you your choices again, watch carefully on the board. Choice number one. Yeah, inspiration. Choice number two, deep learning choice, not pre deep friction or deep strategizing or is it deep daring? Well, for my clients, I would lean toward deep daring. I’m sure I got it wrong.

00;19;52;01 – 00;20;08;27

I see your face. I see your face. I know I got it wrong. I know I got it wrong. It was very hard for me to know that I’m wrong. But deep daring. And can I explain why? And then you can explain why I’m wrong. I Well, okay, sure, Go ahead. No, you tell me. Tell me. Maybe I’m not wrong.

00;20;09;01 – 00;20;34;16

I’m terrified of wrong. No, it’s so closely related. I would see why you might go there first. Yeah. So why don’t you go ahead and tell me why you chose that? And then I lean into why I see what I see. So go ahead. Okay. What I see with my clients is that they don’t have permission. It goes back to the story you just told, but the permission to fail on any front.

00;20;34;18 – 00;21;08;07

And because they’re. There’s a fear of failure or not driving excellence at all costs. Right. Like that. There will always be excellence, period. We will always meet our target period that they make incremental changes as opposed to transformative thinking. In fact, we worked with one of our clients with the top 200 leaders and put our whole learning and working session together that where they were coming up with, they didn’t know, but they were coming up with 2024 strategic elements or initiatives that they’d focus in on.

00;21;08;10 – 00;21;34;11

And and what we continually see is a deep fear of not being excellent and which holds back the transformative thinking and the leaps that they need to make. So that’s why I answered. What I answered is this fear of taking too big of a leap and not delivering on what they promised as a result. All right, Tell me why I’m wrong.

00;21;34;14 – 00;22;02;12

No, you’re not wrong. So let me just extend let me just extend it to why when we measure it, or rather I measure it, that that deep friction ends up being higher than deep. And that’s because if they were to truly articulate it to each other, saying, listen, we’re not sure whether we are up for this and who’s going to take the risk because our systems do not allow us to be as bold as we are told we could be.

00;22;02;19 – 00;22;28;13

Yeah, itself is a piece of friction. That itself requires a certain level of, you know, the ability to navigate a difficult conversation. And because you have not had that difficult conversation, you will continue to not be able to dare as deeply as you could. So the roots of that still end up being in deep conflict in some ways, not deep daring.

00;22;29;19 – 00;23;03;11

has a very strong connection to the deep friction conversations because friction can be big or small and the ability to illuminate it and then navigate it is really hard. Yeah, mixture is all there is. People have got a different set of skill set around interpersonal risk taking. Then there is the organization culture. You know, some cultures put the fish on the table and let it stay in the room for all I care.

00;23;03;14 – 00;23;36;01

Yes. And others like they do this mating dance, hoping the other side will get the cue, which they’re they don’t always get. No. And then there is the whole cross-cultural nuance of how they are socialized, just people to look at conflict versus harmony. And so it becomes so, you know, difficult to step into these conversations. And that’s why the Deep friction chapter is all about how what are the questions you need to ask, even whether it is something as simple as this.

00;23;36;01 – 00;23;52;13

You and I, we have a problem. What’s our preferred method of escalation? Are you okay with me going and talking to your boss about this? Or do you prefer we don’t have a lot to talk about? Or do you prefer you talking to me on email? And if I can’t do anything, I’ll come back.

00;23;52;14 – 00;24;15;06

Like what? Like what? So that it’s not like in the process of trying to sort something, we end up, like, triggering each other more, right? And then causing or worse, becoming passive aggressive? Absolutely. I’ve never snap. I’ve never seen that. I’ve never participated in that. I have no idea what you’re talking about. No, you’re absolutely right. I love that being adult enough to say we’re this is hard.

00;24;15;08 – 00;24;35;03

How do we want to engage? How do we want to work together? This is really hard for both of us. Let’s figure it out. It’s very humane and thoughtful. It feels very grown up. It is time to grow up here now is the time. If we don’t make use of this time, I don’t know if we’ll have the opportunity ever again.

00;24;35;23 – 00;25;01;29

I’d love it. All right. Take a deep breath as we get into the next section. So we focus in on diary. We, we, we not the collective, we the universal. We Daggerwing. We focus in on the human side of organizational change. And it absolutely feels like you focus there as well. People have to change before companies change, right?

00;25;02;02 – 00;25;24;03

A company can’t change on its own. The people have to make a conscious choice to change. Where do you think the field of human centric change is headed in the near future? And are there any tools that we should be using or that you use within your executive coaching practice or interventions that you think are going to become even more mainstream in the years to come?

00;25;24;03 – 00;25;54;01

So I loaded a lot in there. I let’s focus in on. Do you think that there are any elements that are going to be more important in the near future? I think that change itself is changing and in a good way. I think this whole thing about human centric change, the tools that we are now at least I can speak for myself and I, I am connected to a set of people who are leading into these tools, which have been around for a while.

00;25;54;01 – 00;26;20;23

By the way, we may be bringing them in for the first time in the corporate ecosystem, but they’ve been around for a while and all of them are focused on what does it mean to be a human being in the face of change. So typically, when we have thought about human beings in the face of change, we have over intellectualize the conversation, right?

00;26;20;28 – 00;26;42;12

Who’s going to walk? What’s your new reporting line? What are your new goals? Yeah, if you will get to performance appraisal, it’s a very intellectual conversation. Yeah. Then along came Daniel Goldman and team who are like, Wait a second, guys. Like, where’s the emotional intelligence with compensation? You want to be able to navigate the emotional form that comes into this whole thing.

00;26;42;12 – 00;27;06;24

And, you know, how do we be empathetic and, you know, how can leaders trump, as, you know, being supportive of the people, etc., which was itself a breakthrough? Because one of the things that struck me when I was doing my Ph.D. was how little research had been done on the role of emotions. Because while historically the rational economics man theory believes we are all rational creatures, we just use logic, which we know is not true at all.

00;27;06;24 – 00;27;39;13

Now. Okay, so we saw emotions come in. Now what is going to be happening and what I’m seeing and I’m definitely leveraging a lot more off, is looking at somatic intelligence and change, trying to understand and bringing in the intelligence of the body. I mean, this that we have our hands on and are nervous systems. And how do we regulate that as we navigate change?

00;27;39;13 – 00;28;13;12

Because a lot of what our experiences are about are far deeper than we realize. And that is going to be a fascinating and a very human way of talking about change because it allows us to have a certain awareness of how we are experiencing the situation that we are in, not just at the level of intellect, not just at the level of emotions, but processes that we may not completely have access to as to why am I experiencing the situation in a particular way?

00;28;13;12 – 00;28;33;08

What is it doing to me? Right? I was just in a meeting today and one of the leaders got a little bit pushy with the person. It was a younger person making a presentation, asked a few questions. And I have to tell you this. This this young man, he was very composed and, you know, he was holding his own.

00;28;33;08 – 00;28;58;15

I was just observing. I wasn’t leaning into the video. And I noticed, you know, I noticed that while he his face was completely composed and he was, you know, trying to be as responsive to this leader who was kind of pushing him on the edge. His hands were literally shaking. You know, his hands were shaking. I could see it like this is just this little tremor being noticed because I was there just observing.

00;28;58;15 – 00;29;21;14

I wasn’t. And I’m thinking to myself, wow, like how this person he is the calm he’s exuding and the nervousness he’s feeling under gab. Maybe you should interview him how you managed to do this. So somatic intelligence is going to be here in a big way. The second one that I see, which I’m so glad it’s happening, is trauma informed workplaces.

00;29;21;16 – 00;29;53;13

Yeah, that’s again a part of of of human centric change. And the third one, which has been coming in for a while. But I think it’s people are taking it much more seriously is the role of narrative and storytelling and change. So those would be my three trends from where I’m sitting. I like to and it’s really helpful to think about all those elements as well, focusing on people and how to inspire.

00;29;53;13 – 00;30;21;28

How do we listening to our bodies as well? What’s your tell when you get when you know that you’re in a stressful or friction filled, I’ll share mine. My left foot, both a movie and a play. My left foot was very different from my my left foot starts to turn to the right. And I just know, like, that’s where all my tension ends up is in the ankle and my foot.

00;30;21;28 – 00;30;41;15

And it just starts to turn in a way that nobody else can see. But it’s painful to me where I’m like, something like there’s something here that I have to go investigate. Do you have a physical tell for yourself of like, Ooh, I need to be thinking about how I’m responding here and why I am I doing I, I clench my jaw.

00;30;41;22 – 00;31;10;27

Yeah. So I might be smiling, but I’m kind of punch. Yeah. And sometimes I think my heart can start beating very fast. And then I have to. I have to be like, okay, let’s take a deep breath and catch oneself in doing this. But you don’t. These signals are not always problematic. Sometimes it’s right. It’s even a good adrenaline flooding your body and even finding that is helpful.

00;31;11;00 – 00;31;38;16

So I think that’s just too I for most people are looking at your foot under the doorknob. Isn’t that great? And if they are, I need to ask why. But I think it’s right. It’s not always bad. Sometimes it’s like, ooh, this is exciting. Let’s go. But being conscious of how I’m responding and why my body is responding in that way can give me some clues and I need to harness that is in an accelerator is a passion.

00;31;38;19 – 00;32;03;26

Is it is it a fear response? Why am I responding the way I am? So I can be thoughtful and intentional and not just reactive? So I find these tools particularly helpful. Executive coaching, you know, and sometimes it helps to draw the attention of the leaders that I’m working with. As to Have you noticed how you lean in and listen and how you’re coming across?

00;32;03;26 – 00;32;31;10

Like, I had this one leader, she would listen very intently with her with her eyebrows furrowed and with like she would pull her lips back in extreme position. Now, she was an extreme concentration, but to me, that looked like she just was not agreeing with what I was saying, and that would make me pull back even more. And she’s anything but that.

00;32;31;13 – 00;32;53;03

She’s actually an extremely open person, but just managing your body while you are doing your. And it’s not just a body language, it’s why do you always do that? Why do you why is it that certain conversations you never look at me when I’m talking to you about that? That’s interesting. Yeah. You’re almost off to the side. Yeah.

00;32;53;05 – 00;33;31;15

Those. Those things tell us something about. About us. And at the end of the day, it’s all feedback. It’s all feedback. And now everything changes all about what’s the feedback? Does does this feedback need me to take a hard left? Do I need to pause? Do I need to? How do I recalibrate? And yes, I had one client who said that that same thing, like I’m leaning in and it’s going to, she says on a constant basis, especially with new people that she’s working with, I’m going to look very mad while you are talking to me because I’m thinking I have tried to change it.

00;33;31;18 – 00;33;54;01

I cannot please know that if I look mad, I’m probably very, very interested in thinking about what you’re saying to me. Please don’t take it as I’m upset. I’ll let you know if I am upset. I’m not going to be upset and deeply interested. I’ve tried to change it, but this is just me. So here’s how I’m going to respond.

00;33;54;01 – 00;34;22;13

And I want to have a great conversation with you. And just that that opening up to say I am aware I have not yet found a way to change who I am and I may not. I’m still working on it, but please know I’m engaged is so important in building trust and building that collaboration and leaning into the friction of the moment and saying, I’m with you, I’m listening, I’m trying to solve this with you 100%.

00;34;22;13 – 00;34;53;28

And that’s such a great example, particularly because of the whole emotional contagion thing, right? Yeah, the kind not setting the mood for the room. And if she’s looking angry, chances are people are holding back. You know what my struggle is? I have to work really hard on how we tell kids, use your inside voice. I have to tell myself, use your inside emotions because you know the client and this happened and my instant reaction is my eyebrows go up and my eyes become as wide as saucers and as as an executive coach, I don’t have that luxury.

00;34;53;28 – 00;35;13;21

I’m supposed to keep a more even face. And that’s interesting. This might be why I would never be able to be an executive coach, because I just tell them exactly what I’m thinking and feel. So I’ll I’ll try to work on that, but maybe I need to let them know I will be reacting to you while you’re talking to.

00;35;13;21 – 00;35;38;00

Thank you for that awareness. This is we’re coming into the close our time. We do have the book coming out. Tell us the name again when it’s available. I have love the conversation. I know our have as well. And I to imagine we all want to have a copy of this book. Tell us more about it. So it should be out in the first quarter of 2024.

00;35;38;02 – 00;36;11;29

So I think it’ll probably end up being on my seventh birthday because I’d like to combine a celebration like that happened right now. If you wanted to kind of get in on, you know, updates about the book, etc., just go to leaders upgraded dot com forward deep because the book is called deep collaboration and the leaders agreed it forward slash just upgraded DOT com for slash deep that’s what all the updates are that’s where you can sign up for anything.

00;36;12;00 – 00;36;37;26

And of course always you can find a link to just say Chris sent me and I would like hey cool let’s connect. Absolutely Let’s connect folks It’s Dr. Tanveer got them and let’s talk about the re name of your company. You said you’ve moved from leadership to tell us again, leaders upgraded leaders because who doesn’t want an upgrade?

00;36;38;02 – 00;37;05;11

I know. Yes. Agree or agreed? Yes, absolutely. Leaders upgraded. You can find her at leaders upgraded upgrade adcom. Please be looking for book in the first quarter of next year. I loved our conversation today. Absolutely loved it. Please do come back. And if you ever figure out patience, especially like we’ll do an emergency episode, you get right back on mic with us.

00;37;05;14 – 00;37;23;00

I want to know how you figured it out. Okay. But good luck with the book. I will be ordering that. I am so excited to read it and learn even more from you. Thank you so much. Day Thank you very much, Chris. I enjoyed the conversation and definitely will hope that sometimes exports will cross. So thank you again.

00;37;23;06 – 00;37;34;27

I hope so.

More in the Series

Chris Thornton is a Senior Principal and member of the global leadership team at Daggerwing Group. In his role, Chris serves as a source of strategic counsel for Senior Executives with client firms, advising them on how to help clients achieve Executive alignment, transform their cultures and equip and enable people managers to lead and embed change. An expert in the people side of change with both client-side and consulting experience, Chris has worked with leading companies including Nestlé, Pfizer, and GE Aviation to do change right and make it stick. He is also an active speaker on business transformation, a driver of innovation in Daggerwing’s breadth of change consulting services, and the host of Daggerwing Group’s podcast, Change@Work. Chris and his wife were featured in the New York Times for their love of pie.
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