Transcript
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00;00;10;06 – 00;00;32;02
Hello and welcome back to Change@Work. I’m your host, Chris Thornton. Joining me today is Ben Feller, a partner at maslansky + partners, the firm that finds exactly the right words to ensure audience while listening, care and act. For those of you who have previously listened to some of our episodes, you may also remember Lee Carter is a member of maslansky + partners.
00;00;32;02 – 00;00;51;05
So excited to have Ben today. Ben is an award winning writer and a front row journalist in the white House. Is that fair, Ben? That is. Yeah. I mean, you were with AP, is that right? Yes. Okay. With the Associated Press, you were there for Obama and George W Bush, I think. Right. What else should we know about you?
00;00;51;05 – 00;01;14;18
I know you’re an author. I am an author of a children’s book called Big Problems, Little Problems, because that’s what life is turning life’s big problems and a little problems. Yeah. Journalist, author and partner here. Maslansky, you’ve covered most of the things that make up my, my thinking time. Perfect. One of the things we like to do on this podcast is get to know people as people.
00;01;14;18 – 00;01;34;26
Before we dive into the business. You were telling me about a lasagna you made. So, yeah, let’s extend that to the audience because you and I were trading Italian recipes. So tell us about your your lasagna approach I will gladly tell you about. I was on if it earns me, a token towards your baked some. Yeah, absolutely.
00;01;34;28 – 00;01;56;24
Just, putting a stake in that. I am a pretty good cook when I have, instruction manual because I, I’m good with persistence and figuring things out. Not necessarily the best cook. It was opening up a fridge and saying, oh, I know what I could do with that. So, on a winters getaway weekend with my son, who is now 13, this was a few years ago.
00;01;56;26 – 00;02;13;13
Just thought it would be great to make a lasagna and bring it there. And I started looking at the directions like, wow, this is a lot of work. It’s going to take a lot of hours. There’s a lot of layers to this. Literally. And so I was so proud that I, I finished it by, you know, 6:00 am to be ready to get in the car and go up.
00;02;13;13 – 00;02;31;18
And then, once we got to the cab and put it in the oven and we, you know, we went out sledding all day, snowball fights, the whole thing came back in. And my son was, I thought he opened the door as if, like a magician had come in. He’s like, oh, where did this come from? Like your daddy was up early making it, man, was it good and sounds great.
00;02;31;23 – 00;02;58;19
Snowman was on, you know, it’s a perfect match. Well done. Let’s get into what the heck is going on in the business world right now. Ben? Well, a lot has happened. We are recording this on Valentine’s Day, so it’ll definitely come out post this. But middle of February when we’re talking and a lot has happened in the world, at least here within the US and certainly beyond since the beginning of the year.
00;02;58;20 – 00;03;28;09
When you think about what that means for business, how to get business done, how to talk to employees, we could dive into any of those and have hours long discussions about them. Where do you want to start? What stands out to you? Well, and happy Valentine’s Day to you. I, I think that what stands out to me is it is very common for, people who enjoy podcasts like this to understand that there is always change swirling around them.
00;03;28;12 – 00;03;53;07
But what’s happening right now is not a swirl. It’s a tornado. No matter what kind of business you are in, you are in a world in which, things are happening at such a pace that it makes it very hard to focus. That’s that’s what a lot of our clients are dealing with, is how do we tell our story of where we’re headed and the power we want to be on when, my God, we’re getting blown in every single direction.
00;03;53;11 – 00;04;10;20
Yeah, we’re being asked for statements. Were being asked to calm our employees. We’re being asked if we’re going to be funded. Do I still have a job? You know, how do we deal with all these things? And the new administration, as you and I speak to it, I was elected with that idea in mind. Forecast it. It feels like it has a mandate to do that.
00;04;10;28 – 00;04;27;02
But still, what were some of what we’re seeing right now is unprecedented. And so a lot of the work that we do is to get people focused on, listen, you can’t control that environment. As massive as it seems, the thing you control is what do you want to do? What do you want to do and what story do you want to tell.
00;04;27;05 – 00;04;51;02
And let’s stay focused on that and and kind of drive focus and language. And the language changes are the language needs are changing for us because, for example, with diversity, equity, inclusion, which has become a mainstay of, corporate conversation, alas, over the years now there’s this not just a blowback, but, you know, an erosion of it, a mandate to start from the federal level.
00;04;51;04 – 00;05;09;10
And a lot of companies are saying, but we we still believe in that. Do what do we do? Do we stop calling it that? Do we stop the programs? Do we stop recruiting that way? And part of what we do is, is think about the language. The people use has to be, match up with what people are hearing.
00;05;09;13 – 00;05;27;27
And so many of these programmatic titles that have just become part of American conversation, they don’t mean what people think they, you know, acronyms are just so dangerous because they’re empty terms and people assign or some there are meaning to it. So we work with our clients to say, what do you stand for? What matters? And let’s find out how people need to hear it.
00;05;27;27 – 00;05;49;28
And it can be really empowering and calming to to have that kind of focus. And it doesn’t mean there still isn’t a tornado going on, but you could just kind of chart your own. How much more through. Let’s let’s have a spicy conversation around this. If that’s okay. I am fine with spicy. We won’t be unemployed as a result of this conversation, but let’s dig into it.
00;05;49;28 – 00;06;27;15
Well, when you say that acronyms don’t mean anything, I think there are people who have fought really hard to make sure that they do mean something to tell me more. Yeah, I think that I’m in complete agreement with you that people have fought and sacrificed very hard for what those acronyms stand for. So they have fought for the right, for diversity in everything they fought for, the right for the disenfranchized to have a voice, a legitimate voice, to have workplaces and laws that are built around inclusion.
00;06;27;18 – 00;06;49;28
Those things. Yes. They mean a lot. In some cases, they mean everything. What I’m talking about is the way that those things are communicated. When you talk about things such as Dei and you go into a conversation, and if you had sort of a window and saying, oh, all the people I’m talking to right now, how many of them know exactly what I mean?
00;06;50;00 – 00;07;09;05
It’s a it’s a shorthand that you think that you know what you mean. And maybe within a Dei panel, they might. But for a lot of Americans, I’m just using that as one example. You know, it’s a great example, and it’s a really good one. And ESG is another one, environmental social governance that people people don’t conduct their lives thinking.
00;07;09;07 – 00;07;28;23
How was your day today? Well, let me tell you about what we did today in environmental, social and governance thinking. I think even in that space, it’s like what did you do for your employees today? What did you do to advance climate change? How did your company run better today? Because you’ve decided to be more accountable. Like that’s what those people are fighting for, for sure.
00;07;28;23 – 00;07;50;27
Meaning not the labels. And so what? When you when you’re able to change the conversation about what really are you doing, what matters, we find there’s a lot more support for some of these things, but I think, you know, acronyms suggest that everybody knows what those three words or those three letters stand for. And they just they so often don’t.
00;07;50;27 – 00;08;13;08
In fact, the work we did on ESG, with the hell of a lot of voters across America, found that, nine out of ten started a conversation and they were not really familiar with the term nine out of ten. Yeah, right. Some of them thought it stood for eggs, sausage and grits, which, honestly perfect, a perfect breakfast.
00;08;13;08 – 00;08;31;01
I’m on board. So. So I think the frustration that we’ve heard, the pain we felt from people that I care deeply about, this, don’t tell me that I don’t care deeply for the acronyms they know care deeply about it. But in order for it to thrive and continue, let’s talk about how you communicate it in a way that reaches audiences.
00;08;31;01 – 00;08;51;21
That’s really what the worklist when I think about the, overall point, if there was one thing I learned from maslansky + partners, and all of the people and the wonderful people there is Chris. And I know you have a shorthand for it, but let me put it in my words, Chris. It doesn’t matter how much you care.
00;08;51;24 – 00;09;12;15
It doesn’t matter what you meant to say. It’s really what people hear and what they take away from it, what it means to them. Can you speak more on that and then put it in the correct maslansky language for me? Well, first of all, I like your language a lot. I appreciate that, I appreciate the support. The tagline is it’s it’s not what you say is what they hear, which is exactly I was hearing you.
00;09;12;15 – 00;09;33;19
It’s what you said that thought process you laid out that so many people have is. I know what I mean. They don’t get it right. And what do you want to do, Chris? Do you want to blame your audience. Oh you want to. Absolutely. My first reaction is to blame my audience. Just so you know, it’s to say there’s something deficient in the way they think and the way they approach life.
00;09;33;20 – 00;09;54;11
You have built a successful podcast. Yeah. That’s people keep coming back. Yeah. Like they if they only understood you know. And this is you can almost feel your body when you say that. Yeah. I just could get it and your, your fist crunch up and say, well, okay. That is a, that is a true frustration. But why aren’t they getting it.
00;09;54;13 – 00;10;19;26
Is it are they intentionally, misinterpreting you or are they are they hijacking your terms? Some of that happens. Is in the political world I used to cover, but a lot of it is they just not hearing what you actually mean. Again, the acronym Soup is part of this. So so what I like to do when I’m not just in our projects where we help people find the language, but when I coach people on presenting is to say, here’s X that we’re talking about.
00;10;19;26 – 00;10;39;06
And by the way, when I say that, here’s what I mean. And when you force people into that moment, the next thing they say is almost always plainspoken, you know, you know what we’re talking about when we say, you know, environmental, social governance, right? And you get blank stares. We’re talking about how we take care of our people, allocate to the planet, right, and how accountable we are for the work that we do.
00;10;39;06 – 00;10;59;02
Everybody good and every now else. Oh, okay. Yeah. I’m with you. Okay. Now keep going. Well, you just brought them in. Yeah. And now your your fists aren’t clenched. Producing. Why are they. In a sense, they do understand. But you just took a second to bring them in. And so a lot of these conversations that people have are, there’s a, there’s a built up sense of why don’t they get it in the day isn’t in the room with them.
00;10;59;02 – 00;11;19;03
It’s like the outside audiences. Or maybe it is their bosses, you know, why can’t I get this race sick? Well, think about it. Sometimes they are, you know, to blame, but oftentimes it’s they’re not actually disagreeing with you in principle or in substance, in ethics and priority, but they’re really not getting what you’re saying and what you’re asking for.
00;11;19;03 – 00;11;47;13
And how do you how do you bridge that. And that’s and we see that time and again. And you know, when you finish one of these projects, you think they feel vindicated or affirmed or, you know, they just feel relief like, oh, okay. Thank you. You know, one of the best compliments I ever got in the 30 year career of doing this was when a guy that we work for, the president of this university, you know, we were done with the project and he went around the room, said, is everybody good?
00;11;47;16 – 00;12;04;08
He wanted to hear from every single person I was everybody good, every person, person. And one guy said, yeah, this is all this is how we always wanted to talk about ourselves, but never could. Wow. Not never did. Like we knew what to say. We didn’t have the courage. Never could. We couldn’t figure it out. We found it.
00;12;04;08 – 00;12;21;06
Now there’s this. This relief. And the meeting ended. They started using it and every said, how’s it going up there? They said, everybody’s walking around campus a little taller as we figured it out, you know? So it’s the opposite of the of the clenched fist. It’s like opening. It’s okay, I get it now. And I have a way to talk about it.
00;12;21;06 – 00;12;35;16
And I have a way to make sure that we have common ground before we talk about what we’re going to do about it. Yeah, it reminds me, I had a boss a long time ago. I won’t won’t tell you which company. But you can look at my LinkedIn profile and try to figure out which one are you.
00;12;35;17 – 00;13;02;26
Okay, you’ll get it. Sounds fun. You don’t know exactly which company, but. But who kept using the get on the bus metaphor and and use it as a threat. You better get on the bus to employees. You better get on the bus. We are going. You better get on the bus. And it was just this constant threat. And I finally talked to him and I said, you do realize everybody thinks you’re going to drive over them?
00;13;02;28 – 00;13;27;09
And he said, I will, metaphorically. And I said, they know that. Yeah, but what they don’t know is where you’re going and why they should trust you. And in fact, you’ve not taken the time to explain to them why we need to get there, because we’re not there already or why things need to change. And it was just you saw this realization.
00;13;27;09 – 00;13;51;10
I saw this realization on this leader of going, And I and I think the initial reaction was, well, they’re not very smart. If they don’t understand. Right. It’s this immediate deflection of something’s not smart enough or they don’t think the way that I do and therefore I can’t trust them. This constant just eliminate the naysayers around you without realizing I need a bunch of them.
00;13;51;10 – 00;14;20;06
I need them to get where we actually need to go, where to actually deliver on results. Every time I work with someone from his landscape, I am constantly reminded of this deep desire to make things better. And I think everything that you’ve shared in this conversation is just a reminder that if you don’t allow people in, if you don’t bring them with you, they can’t move forward where where you need them to go.
00;14;20;06 – 00;14;38;17
They can’t play the role that you need them to play, and they certainly can’t help figure it out if they don’t understand the language. It’s actually a really beautiful example. So that get on the bus example, I bet every one of your listeners has an example like that that just sparked something like, yeah, I don’t I bet I don’t know why they say that.
00;14;38;17 – 00;14;57;10
I don’t know why they say that. That doesn’t pull me in. You know, the four questions that I brought from my journalism career into this life of strategic counsel for companies is, who are you? What do you do? How is it different? Why should I care? That’s okay. Yeah, we do that. Okay, let’s think about it again.
00;14;57;10 – 00;15;16;02
Who are you? What do you do? Well, those first two things, you know, companies and organizations, associations, they spend a lot of time on it. But it’s not always plainspoken and crisp and clear. Say no, no, no, no. We got a mission and a vision statement. Yeah. Mission statement approved by the board of trustees. It sounds pretty insular.
00;15;16;05 – 00;15;33;26
Right. Like but let’s just say that you’ve got your who are you and what do you do down pretty clearly. How are you different. Okay. Well now you’re asking say how do we the things that we just talked about, how is it competitively different than all the other people are offering something different? That’s a hard question, right?
00;15;33;28 – 00;15;51;17
It’s easier to just stop with you. Yeah, but now you’ll look at who you are in comparison. The other but the one that that they really get stuck on is the last one. Why should I care who’s the eye? Yeah, the the eye is the the listener. And if you actually put, you know, a lot of these places up to they had to tell the truth.
00;15;51;17 – 00;16;08;06
They say I know why they should care because we’re doing it. We decided to do it. We’re selling this like they should care because we’re doing it all for them. Why don’t they get it? You know. What do you mean? Like I said, they care. Okay. Yeah. This is what we do. You. Now I have to take into account the audience’s cares, into the thing that I spent all my life building.
00;16;08;13 – 00;16;29;02
And, you know, the answer is yes. So in your example, you know, where are we going? Where are we going? Why should I trust you? Where’s this headed? Take the time. Explain. Call me an. Okay. Great. Now, how long did that take, Albert? But I’ve seen so many examples of this point alone. Chris, this month, you know, somebody was upset about something.
00;16;29;05 – 00;16;49;23
Then they met the person, and the person says, oh, here’s who I am. What happened there was contentious. Now they just had that one conversation. Yeah. You know, but often what happens is in the context of change management, the types of things you and I are talking about, they are seen as either optional, like soft power communication or the last thing you do.
00;16;49;25 – 00;17;06;24
We figured all this other stuff out about the culture now, geez, did anybody think about how to communicate this to the team? Or what do we do here that we should just put some copy up on the website? It perfect the communication. Is it is it the heart of the change management on a division at the end?
00;17;06;27 – 00;17;32;17
You’re striking a chord with me because I was on the call yesterday with with a client who will absolutely remain nameless. But we found they are such a relationship based organization. But all the relationships changed and then the accountabilities changed. And no one stop to say, we need to have a new conversation about who’s doing what, because I no longer know what you need for me.
00;17;32;17 – 00;17;57;14
I assume what you need for me is what I’ve been giving to you, because I’m just going to keep giving you that. And another part of the organization is changed significantly. And and a statement made by one of my colleagues on the tag rowing team was for such a relationship based organization. They don’t seem to know how to talk to each other about the stuff that matters.
00;17;57;14 – 00;18;15;20
Yeah, and that was such an for us. And we share that with a client. And and it was a little like a mirror, being held up to myself in the morning. Going there is not the way I want to present myself to the world, but that is how I’m showing up before I get myself ready for the day.
00;18;15;20 – 00;18;35;04
It was, it was a bit of a, an intense truth for them. And we figured out we just we really just need to get people to talk to each other and figure out, what do you need for me? But let’s move into the current situation that I see many clients in is that they’re scared to talk.
00;18;35;04 – 00;19;04;29
Now that I don’t want to say something wrong, I don’t know if we’re doing that anymore. So I don’t want to make promises that I can no longer keep. I don’t know what whirlwind tornado is going to enter my life if I say something wrong, if I say this is important or it’s not important, can you talk to us about how do you get over this hesitancy to say anything at all?
00;19;05;01 – 00;19;28;20
Well, the first thing to do is to honor it and understand it and say, that’s it. That’s a completely rational reaction to the environment right now. It’s to say, I don’t want to put it knowingly, put a target on my back, you know, and our stakeholders. So full acknowledgment of that. So then the question goes back to what I said at the beginning is what what is your goal?
00;19;28;20 – 00;19;52;04
What do you want to do. And if what you want to do involves convincing people, customers, right, students, whoever your audience is, to do something you can’t give in to this sense. We just can’t. We can’t say anything, right? Silence is the answer. Because first, the conversation is going to happen without you. Then it’s a false choice to say, participate.
00;19;52;04 – 00;20;17;20
Don’t participate. Participation is already happening. It’s just a matter of how you do. It doesn’t mean you have to put a statement out about every controversial issue, right? Respond to everything. But if your core business involves convincing people to join you, to advocate with you, to give to you, to vote with you, to shop with you, travel with you, you have to find a way to stay active in the conversation.
00;20;17;23 – 00;20;36;01
So I would shift the paradigm from whether to to how to and and yeah, it’s like, well, if I have to and I get it wrong, do you come after me? Sure. Like we don’t live in a risk averse world, right? You know, I think the risk averse in a, in a competitive corporate setting, they’re, they’re not going to win it by staying quiet.
00;20;36;03 – 00;20;57;07
So the so the right way to think about this is my point of view is how you could be you could be how carefully judiciously. But you have to find a way to continue to engage. And oftentimes the work that we do, we’re we’re trying out different ideas with audiences to figure out what what is the way to speak that is authentic to them, but also matches your values.
00;20;57;10 – 00;21;18;05
Once you find that you feel that you don’t feel as worried about the target because you found the language that that works in wins. And then when you start to get attacked like, oh, let’s say go back to D, you know, however, whatever the critics say about it, it’s not merit based. It’s led to these crazy activities happening in the world.
00;21;18;05 – 00;21;33;13
And so like, they could say what they want. Let me tell you what we stand for. Here’s what we think about. Right? I’m putting it. And then you’re not using the acronym. You’re saying, well, we think about diversity in our workplace. We do it for material good because we’re here to make money. We do it for the benefit of our employees.
00;21;33;16 – 00;21;53;01
Because, you know, a diverse workplace is better. We want to represent the community that work in. And here’s what we stand for, and we’re going to continue to stand for it. Now, did I just solve the problem for them? You know, there’s maybe this possibility that they will get, you know, targeted. Sure. But what power if you control the story that you want to tell and find a way.
00;21;53;04 – 00;22;21;04
And so that’s how we’re talking about it. And typically what happens is clients hear that. Like, actually that sounds a lot more like the way we want to act. We’re just not exactly sure how to do that. You know, we can you help us figure out how to do it. But the idea of just quietly going away. So when Chris, when does this coming back around to your term in a political cycle, like I’m telling you, the conversation is going to keep happening.
00;22;21;07 – 00;22;49;22
I think the ones that win engage smartly. Any final words of wisdom? Bang. Because I think there’s a lot of actionable, actionable, good stuff. And what you’ve shared today. Well, I appreciate that. And it’s important that, we don’t just think about language as this ideal state of what people should do, but to make it actionable, you know, the thinking about things and the way the right questions to ask, shifting mindset from whether you’re engaged to how to engage.
00;22;49;24 – 00;23;08;01
But one lesson that I continue to relearn that I thought I might share with you here, Chris, is, you know, we started with this idea of food and lasagna, and that was all built on how do I have a great weekend with my son and and part of my life, huge part of my life is raising, my son.
00;23;08;01 – 00;23;25;28
And he has taught me so much about all the things we’re talking about, about how do you communicate in a way that people hear you. So when he was little and we were running out to school, we had, you know, nine minutes to get there. Rick Parent knows that, yes, I know how did we get had we had two hours and others nine minutes left.
00;23;26;05 – 00;23;42;13
So what’s the one thing that you can’t have happen right when you’re about to leave is something that keeps you from leaving. And he was little and he always was, you know, he couldn’t find something, couldn’t find his favorite toy or, you know, and so this particular day, he couldn’t figure out how to zip up his new coat.
00;23;42;15 – 00;24;01;21
And, my first instincts were, it’s not a big deal. And then my second instincts were to say, I’ll do it now. And these are not. These are the instincts of a rushed, tired parent. These are not the instincts of somebody who’s actually helping to solve the problem. So the pattern I got into was to get down on one knee.
00;24;01;21 – 00;24;14;13
So we were eye to eye, and we took three deep breaths and I could just see him calm down. Like, now let me show you how to do that. And we lined up the grooves and zipped up the coat and he could see the smile on his face. And then the next thing I did was I unzipped it and he’s like, what?
00;24;14;19 – 00;24;26;03
What was that? We had it solve the unsolved. I said, no, I’d like you to do it now. And he lined up and he did it. And he had a different smile on his face because he had figured it out. And so and then we did a handshake and a hug, and we had this whole pattern and what I was teaching him.
00;24;26;03 – 00;24;43;28
And I used the language of big problems versus little problems to, to show him how these deep feelings of frustrations in his chest about not being able to zip up a code or find a toy were actually solvable. And then, you know what? I didn’t say to him was like, over and over again, like, just don’t get frustrated.
00;24;43;28 – 00;24;59;07
I would show him what that meant. And he said, what is, what is what’s this word? Frustration. And then one day we were stuck in traffic and I just couldn’t get through the Holland Tunnel, coming back into the city. And, man, I just lost it. I just, you know, my kid was in his car seat and was just the two of us.
00;24;59;07 – 00;25;17;29
And this is a family share, so I won’t say what I said, but it wasn’t pretty. I’m sure I’ve said those same words. And he goes, and he had from his car seat, he said, daddy, whoa. And I don’t get frustrated. And he used his hands. And you can picture this in the rearview mirror. I’m looking and he’s like, is this a big problem or a little problem?
00;25;18;01 – 00;25;39;17
He wanted me to to calm down and make the problem smaller. He’s like, we’ll get home. And, I just I loved him even more after that. And I also started to watch my language, but I thought, you know, these kids teach us because, you know, we take the time to listen, speak to them how in a way that they can learn, actually bring that life lesson into my work.
00;25;39;18 – 00;25;57;12
And and just this morning, we were, you know, getting ready to go to school for him. And he said, hey, I meant to show you this essay I wrote. You know, obviously he’s older now. And he wrote this whole essay. It was a book. Where to you about the protagonist, and he starts out with the perspective of the dad and walks through and I’m like, Sam, do you realize what you’ve done here?
00;25;57;14 – 00;26;16;23
You know? And I said, look at the book. He’s like, I remember that whole story about the first time you taught me that word, which of course gave me perspective. The cycle goes on and on. But the lesson is from kids to politics to business, you find the language that your audience is understand changes your tone, changes your week, changes your bottom life.
00;26;16;25 – 00;26;35;01
And, I really appreciate the chance to talk to you about it. It means the most to me. Ben Feller is a partner at Best Landscaping Partners, and you should contact him if you need some help with this. And you can also pick up his book. Pick problems, little problems wherever fine books are sold them. Thank you so much.
00;26;35;04 – 00;26;41;07
Thank you my friend. Enjoyed it.
